Questions & Discussion

[Oni]

This is just something I thought should be up. Since I'm pretty sure some people have questions too.

This is my Question, Is is confirmed that Spock's wife/fiance T'Pring died on Vulcan? Because most of the time I usually just see it in Fan Fictions that she is dead and I kind of doubt them no matter how awesome they are.

[art.nerd]

Well...I don't think it was ever confirmed, persay, but probability-wise, I think its safe assume that she's dead. But who knows? If she just happened to be off-planet at the time for some reason...

[Oni]

Well from what I seen in Amok Time, she's pretty Smart. I think she would have gotten off Planet in time with her Love-Pig Stonn in time.

[rexchanna]

No, we hear nothing about T'Pring in the movie. But I think she might be a non-issue, since Spock was kind of dating Uhura, and wouldn't that be infidelity? But then, they are merely betrothed...

[Oni]

No, we hear nothing about T'Pring in the movie. But I think she might be a non-issue, since Spock was kind of dating Uhura, and wouldn't that be infidelity? But then, they are merely betrothed...

Maybe Spock is just experimenting with Uhura with human relationships and wasn't really planning to go as far as marrying her.

[Mikkiness]

could be, but if they plan to keep him with Uhura, they have to get rid of T'pring, and the KABOOM! was an easy way to do it.

[art.nerd]

could be, but if they plan to keep him with Uhura, they have to get rid of T'pring, and the KABOOM! was an easy way to do it.

essentially, yes.


and I had a question of my own...well, not so much a question as a...musing: in the episode "the immunity syndrome" Spock "felt" when a ship of 400some Vulcans died (it obviously caused him great physical shock)...so imagine what it must have been like to feel a whole planet die...

[Mikkiness]

I remember reading that he felt when his planet exploded, but I assumed it was made up, huh. I'd guess that explains why Jim found it so easy to compromise him, surely other people have insulted his mother since those Vulcan brats in the movie.

[Pirate College Graduate]

Well from what I seen in Amok Time, she's pretty Smart. I think she would have gotten off Planet in time with her Love-Pig Stonn in time.

I love you.

[Pirate College Graduate]

Also, if I asked a question that had to do with race, would you all be offended? If so, please let me know, and I will NOT ask. If it doesn't bother you, also let me know, as it has been on my mind all day.

Lindsay

[Oni]

They should have, but that's probably another thing that JJ and the other writers ignored because they probably didn't watch to much of TOS.

[Oni]

I love you.

Thank you, Invader Zim Fan?

[Pirate College Graduate]

Thank you, Invader Zim Fan?

I just thought it was a funny quote, but yes, I love Zim.

[Pirate College Graduate]

My OTHER question: How are we going to convince the writers that there should be K/S in the film, when there's the whole "alternate reality issue"? The film makers may look at our case and argue back "Yes, TOS had some K/S stuff, but this is an Alternate Reality, and in this alternate reality Spock is with Uhura, so your argument is invalid". I would say in reply, "that may be, but Kirk and spock met in THIS universe as well, and they were MEANT to meet, so isn't that enough proof that some things never change?" ....I'll have a better argument later, but for now, that's one of my points. But this question has been bouncing in my brain all day, and I need your all's ideas on it, because the writers/producers/director may very well bounce that argument into our court. We need to be prepared if they do.

Lindsay

PS: I still think that the newest film did have some VERY subtle K/S looks and touches and the like (I've got vids for proof), but we want is to EXPAND on those.

[Crazy Like a Fawkes]

...may look at our case and argue back "Yes, TOS had some K/S stuff, but this is an Alternate Reality, and in this alternate reality Spock is with Uhura, so your argument is invalid".

That is a really good point, and we definitely need to come up with a solid argument to counter that. What you said about some things being meant to happen is good. Although they have been shaped by different experiences, they are ultimately still Kirk and Spock. I'm pretty sure the universe will implode if they aren't at least BFFs.

PS: I still think that the newest film did have some VERY subtle K/S looks and touches and the like (I've got vids for proof), but we want is to EXPAND on those.

Like you said, there were some subtle things. I went and saw it with my friend (who doesn't read slash, so she isn't constantly seeing it in everything she watches, nor does she watch TOS) and even she was like "Was it just me, or do Kirk and Spock have way more chemistry than Spock and Uhura? Did you see how they were looking at each other?"

It made me very happy. :D

[Pirate College Graduate]

@ Crazy: That does indeed make me happy as well. :D Do we think the writers did this intentionally to shut us K/S fans up? Because it did not. It just left us wanting more.

Lindsay

[Oni]

My OTHER question: How are we going to convince the writers that there should be K/S in the film, when there's the whole "alternate reality issue"? The film makers may look at our case and argue back "Yes, TOS had some K/S stuff, but this is an Alternate Reality, and in this alternate reality Spock is with Uhura, so your argument is invalid". I would say in reply, "that may be, but Kirk and spock met in THIS universe as well, and they were MEANT to meet, so isn't that enough proof that some things never change?" ....I'll have a better argument later, but for now, that's one of my points. But this question has been bouncing in my brain all day, and I need your all's ideas on it, because the writers/producers/director may very well bounce that argument into our court. We need to be prepared if they do.

Lindsay

PS: I still think that the newest film did have some VERY subtle K/S looks and touches and the like (I've got vids for proof), but we want is to EXPAND on those.

Most of the time when ever they use the 'Alternate Reality' card I just think that they are men who are self conscious about their manhood.
But yeah, They did meet in this universe, if it really was that different of an 'Alternate Reality' as they stated, they would have never met AT ALL. But instead as stated in the novel 'The Time line is trying to repair itself.' which was why Team Awesome has been brought to the bridge of the Enterprise because its like Fate. Then probably like fate, Jim and Spock have an amazing friendship/Relationship.

I just found out that Spock is only one year older than Jim, that kind of blows my mind.

[Pirate College Graduate]

I just found out that Spock is only one year older than Jim, that kind of blows my mind.

Where'd you find this out?

[Oni]

Where'd you find this out?

Memory Alpha. Spock was born 2232 and Jim was born 2233. And Apparently, Spock Prime is 155, He's got about another 50 good years on him!
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Spock
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/James_T._Kirk

[rexchanna]

Memory Alpha. Spock was born 2232 and Jim was born 2233. And Apparently, Spock Prime is 155, He's got about another 50 good years on him!
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Spock
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/James_T._Kirk
Well... Spock Prime did some heavy hintage that Spock and Kirk were really close. Like, REALLY close. Like, YOU CAN'T MISS THIS OPPORTUNITY TO MEET HIM, YOUNGER ME kind of close.

Their relationship is very central to their characters, and the movies are already set up to be centered around them... An Alternate Reality argument would be total bs, since they want to "stay true" to Roddenberry and all that.

[Pirate College Graduate]

Wouldn't it be awesome if this whole time the writers planned on ending the trilogy with K/S, but just kept it secret from the world in order to infuriate the lot of us? Those bastards. ^_^

[Elanor Sarralyn]

It woould. It would be very lovely.

But I'm not trusting them with that. *shifty*

[art.nerd]

Wouldn't it be awesome if this whole time the writers planned on ending the trilogy with K/S, but just kept it secret from the world in order to infuriate the lot of us? Those bastards. ^_^

I had that very same thought!

[talesofsomething]

ME TOOOOOO. It's what helps me sleep at night. xD

[TheBrownRecluse]

That would be too beautiful to imagine. My brain is shutting down just thinking about it. *drifts off in bliss*

[Elanor Sarralyn]

Apologies if this is somewhat off-topic, but I was reading on this subject in one thread or another and I can't find it for the life of me. I figured this was as good a place to put it as any, as it deals primarily with the 2009 movie.

On the matter of what to do if the writers say that because it's an alternate universe, Spock and Kirk don't need to have that chemistry--

For one, I honestly think it's already rather established. I just rewatched the movie, this time with more of an eye toward K/S and SEE, and Spock is incredibly unemotional towards Uhura. It took until the second time Uhura tried to kiss him for him to respond, but with Kirk, as Lanaea wrote (apologies, fangirlism), put Kirk in the same room as him for five minutes and you get an emotional response. This suggests, at least to me, that Kirk would have a much easier time of it getting close to Spock emotionally. Spock and Kirk already have so much more chemistry going on than Spock and Uhura.

I would also like to point out that when they're onboard that...um..ship, where Spock's about to board the jellyfish-like shuttle (sorry, don't know the name), he calls him Jim. From the look of it, it probably took Spock and Uhura a good long while to move into first-name territory--yet Spock has known Jim only a few days, and is already calling him by his first name.

I would also like to point out, just for the sheer fangirlism of it, the slap scene. Unless I'm blind (which is completely possible, it's happened many a time, trust me), you can't actually see what Jim slaps on Spock, just that Spock's expression is priceless and hilarious. Infer what you will. *shifty*

And lastly, when Spock asks Spock Prime why he himself did not simply come aboard and fix the problem, Spock Prime answers, "Because you needed each other. I could not deprive you of the revelation of all that you could accomplish together, of a friendship that will define you both in ways you cannot yet realize."

That alone implies so much. That their friendship goes beyond the range of normal human definition of friendship (*cough t'hy'la coughcough*), that their friendship would develop them in ways they cannot imagine. That their relationship would deepen beyond friendship, to the point of that emotional bond, whatever you wish to call it, that ties them together so much. I would also, er, like to point out that from the way Spock Prime phrases it, this sort of bond that he had with Kirk Prime and that he is trying for Spock to have with Kirk, is rather exclusive. It's just the two of them; when it comes down to the wire, it is always the two of them. Together.

[Mikkiness]

Woah... for some reason, I love your post, I think its cause I agree with you on pretty much everything you pointed out. Except that when I watched the movie, he definitely thwacked Spocks upper arm. *major pouts*
Also, when I watched the movie, I counted about 10 looks and touches and just general things that said there is no way in hell they've only just met. This doesnt count all the extra scenes they were both present in, they are just the ones where those moments were incredibly noticable. This is made particularly interesting by the fact Spock only interacts with Uhura 4 times, the 'put me on the Enterprise' scene, both kisses and 1 look at the very end that actually goes something like from Kirk to Spock to Uhura, to Sulu to Chekov. Thus it doesn't really count.

[Elanor Sarralyn]

Except that when I watched the movie, he definitely thwacked Spocks upper arm. *major pouts*


Damn. I completely missed that. Will, however, continue to live in denial!universe. Shhhh.

I have to say, that first scene with Uhura and Spock makes her sound incredibly bitchy. I'd like her to explain to the USS Farragut why precisely she doesn't want to be on their ship, thank you very much.

Spock and Uhura, as you said, barely make eye contact. Whereas Jim and Spock, all sort of Significant Eye Contact aaaall over the place. And also them standing together to face Nero--that alone suggests the camaraderie.

Also, I'd like to point out that in that scene where Spock wants Jim to tell Uhura something in case he dies, he's very easily persuaded by Jim just to forget about it. If I really loved someone and was possibly about to die, no way in hell would I let someone who I'd only known for a few days persuade me out of somehow relaying to them that last message. It implies, to me, that already Spock trusts Jim deeply, even only after a few days; if Jim says that he will live, Spock believes him.

[Mikkiness]

Or at least knows him well enough not to argue anyway.

[Pirate College Graduate]

I've looked all over, and I can't find the part where Spock calls him Jim. Can anyone tell me when he calls him Jim? Is it when he's talking about Lieutenant Uhura?

[rexchanna]

I've looked all over, and I can't find the part where Spock calls him Jim. Can anyone tell me when he calls him Jim? Is it when he's talking about Lieutenant Uhura?
Towards the end where they're on Spock Prime's little ship. Jim's about to leave, and Spock stops him by saying "Jim." He goes on to tell Jim to tell Uhura... something. >>

And, YES. LEONARD NIMOY IS IN ON THE K/S TOO. : D

[Pirate College Graduate]

Towards the end where they're on Spock Prime's little ship. Jim's about to leave, and Spock stops him by saying "Jim." He goes on to tell Jim to tell Uhura... something. >>

And, YES. LEONARD NIMOY IS IN ON THE K/S TOO. : D

OH my lord he is?? XD That is so awesome...too awesome for words.

Also, just curious, what part of the film is "Enterprising Young Men" from? It's so...awesome.

[Xerxies]

I agree that Spock and Kirk have infinitely more chemistry than Spock and Uhura. I like to watch all the parts where they're just staring intently at each other while talking and be like "Lost in each other's eyes in 3...2...1...NOW." in my head. *squees and explodes*

[Oni]

Has anyone else read about the 'Cut' Shatner scene from the new movie? http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1611116/story.jhtml

Spock Prime Keeps his old love letters! In my mind, its still Cannon.

[M'Lady Godiva]

This is a bit more in reference to earlier posts, but I was thinking about the alternative reality quandary with S/U where the producers/writers just say, "Well, it's our AU, so take it or leave it."

Isn't it simply possible for those two to just...fall out of it? I love Uhura, but Spock never seems particuarly aware of or intense around her. Besides, the large portion of their relationship we saw was during an extremely adrenaline-packed mission everyone was freaking out about. Normally, people get more physical and lusty because of said adrenaline, but Spock's like, "meh."

I guess this is hopeful thinking on my part, but in terms of that argument, can't you just say it's not unrealistic for two people to just stop liking each other (romantically)? Especially when put through pressure-cooker environments?

[Elanor Sarralyn]

I guess this is hopeful thinking on my part, but in terms of that argument, can't you just say it's not unrealistic for two people to just stop liking each other (romantically)? Especially when put through pressure-cooker environments?

That's what I was thinking. It's not as if Spock had never expressed attraction for anyone else, nor Kirk, for that matter, hah. Also, *points at Lanaea* Fell out of it they did.

[Kurry]

So I was doing a lot of thinking as I wrote the petition, and I think I’ve discovered an argument for K/S in the mainstream films. A logical conclusion, as Spock might say. You were worried about the Alternate Reality thing, right, Lindsay? Here's your argument.

Consider that Vulcan is now destroyed and the Vulcan race itself endangered. From a purely biological point of view, it makes sense to me that the Vulcan Council would begin some sort of program to start replenishing their numbers. The seven year cycle of Pon Farr means that they’re going to have to be damn careful not to lose any more Vulcans, and they will logically want to make sure they arrange the best pairings of male and female in order to produce strong offspring. With me so far? Okay.

Now consider that Spock is half-human. From a logical Vulcan standpoint, as seen in the film when Spock went before the Council to refuse his acceptance to their academy, the Vulcan Council views Spock’s mixed heritage as a disadvantage. So, unless they were absolutely desperate for any Vulcan blood, it makes sense that they would not allow him to mate with any Vulcan woman because that would ‘taint’ the line.

So what does that mean for Spock? Basically, it means that as soon as he hits his cycle, he’s going to die. He cannot mate with a Vulcan. His hormones will go uncontrolled and kill him. The kalifee is not an option if he is cut off from all Vulcan women anyway. So unless the writers decide to magically ignore Pon Farr, we’re not going to have Spock around for long in the new franchise. (Believe me, seven years goes fast in the movie world.)

BUT, if he were to develop a bond with Kirk and mate with him during the cycle, it is likely that he would survive. Why? Because Kirk is male and stronger in spirit than most. Assuming that the writers of the new franchise allowed Kirk and Spock to form their personal bond, as they did in TOS, Spock would already have a potentially powerful mental bond with Kirk. As well, Kirk is stronger in body than most human women (no offense, ladies, but you can’t argue with nature sometimes) so he’d likely be more capable of wrestling around with a violently aroused Spock. We’ve already seen he can survive getting his ass kicked by Spock (which is another interesting thing altogether – why the hell DID Spock stop trying to kill him? Was it the first brush of their minds together or what? But I’ll address that in a later post.)

Badda-bing, they’re a perfect match, both in physical strength and mental capacity. Adding the romantic bit is only logical at this point. And in Uhura’s defence, she’s totally badass and I really like her character. But Spock could break her like a twig if they ever attempted to mate during Pon Farr. As good as her intentions are, I’m sure, I just don’t think she’d be able to handle Spock long-term.

In essence, the writers of the first film set Spock up to be paired with Kirk, if you look at it the right way.

Thoughts? Feel free to start up a debate, I’m all for it.

[Oni]

Vulcan's are able to reproduce even without Pon Farr. In Star Trek Voyager, the Character Tuvok has three children not aged 7 years apart. I think Pon Farr is an instinct in Vulcans that is a safety precaution, because of the suppression of their Emotions, they must also suppress Lust. If left to the suppression of lust entirely then they might just not breed at all and just die out.

I also read that there are also other Vulcan Colonies much like the Earth Colonies, so the total amount of Vulcans alive is unsure.

Your comment about Uhura not handing Spock long terms is a good point. I read in an interview with the writers that S/U was now put in because of earlier episodes where she often teased and flirted with Spock. But in the second Season it ended, maybe she lost interest? Who is to say the NU!Uhura the same thing won't happen? Because afterward most of the time it was Nurse Chapel who flirted with Spock (Well Kirk too.) and Uhura seemed fine with it.

[Sussy]

Going to do this in bass akwards order cos I'm coming into this late, point by point::rolleyes:

1) Vulcan Pon Farr--This was, so far as I can recall, directly tied to the planet Vulcan...which no longer exists. It called them, like salmon--no seriously, that's how Spock dumbed it down to McCoy lol--to basically spawn on their ancestral grounds...which no longer exist. All I can see of this is that either they will establish a much needed -connection- to their new home, which will likely have a different cycle than their previous planet did. Also, the intensity of the loss will likely put some of them off their normal cycle in any case.

2) Screaming souls/Katras--As mentioned, Spock did "sense" the loss of those Vulcans on...what ship was it >.< (great, now I have "I'm on a Boat" stuck in my head lol). We know that Spock Prime felt quite a huge deal when it happened--he had to watch it and everything (even though I'm not sure how that could be, seeing as how he should have been on T'Khul and not Delta Vega but that's a plothole for another thread). So yeah, in my opinion he probably got psychically smashed up against some nasty rocks in that little tidal wave of AHHH *poof* Then again, black holes being what they are, the screams could be eternally reverberating in space for all eternity *shudder.*

3) T'hy'la--So, its my opinion that this kind of bond is a soul bond--two katras that coexist. No matter what timeline, or however you'd like to call it, these two katras would be drawn to one another. Recognition of the bond, strengthening of the bond, etc however would take intention--it would be totally sad if they did not find each other and create their true expression for that universe/timeline, whatever. It would be a major loss for the universe. Maybe that's why the term is so loosely translated--the concept of the soul/katra is hard enough to describe.

4) On Alt/Realities and Uhura--Spock just lost his whole everything. He had nothing to hold onto, and he couldn't hold onto Jim because he doesn't know about the bond yet. Who was there, in his personal space, with their own tons of emotions and lots of touching? Uhura. I'm not saying she did it on purpose--sure she meant well and all. But I'm supposing Spock had a static CLING!reaction to the first thing he could, just because he needed some stability.

5)Nukirk and Nuspock--they rub each other the wrong way from the first second. They're both raw and untempered and they're meeting each other before they did in the previous universe. Personally I think that this might set them up for an even better relationship, eventually. They're getting all this turmoil up front, so to speak.

6)T'Pring--Don't know if she's alive. I hope not. She was...such...a conniving Romulan!

7)Speaking of that, imagine the turmoil of all those bonds being ripped to shreds!

@Elanor--the ship really is called the Jellyfish, if you're talking bout Spock Prime's time ship.
--Also, YES to this:
When Spock asks Spock Prime why he himself did not simply come aboard and fix the problem, Spock Prime answers, "Because you needed each other. I could not deprive you of the revelation of all that you could accomplish together, of a friendship that will define you both in ways you cannot yet realize."
--AND this:
It implies, to me, that already Spock trusts Jim deeply, even only after a few days; if Jim says that he will live, Spock believes him.

@Kurry--I think this is likely, but also we've got "Selek" *cough* I mean SpockPrime, in case they want some of his genes as a backup.
So what does that mean for Spock? Basically, it means that as soon as he hits his cycle, he’s going to die.

In reference to this, I think it was cos his dad Sarek called him out of it on the bridge--
We’ve already seen he can survive getting his ass kicked by Spock (which is another interesting thing altogether – why the hell DID Spock stop trying to kill him?

About this, hey, Amanda handled it with Sarek--I'm not sure HOW but...she did. AND in the other universe, Sarek went out and got another human wife! Don't think that one will hold up 100%.
But Spock could break her like a twig if they ever attempted to mate during Pon Farr.

@Oni--Referencing:
I read in an interview with the writers that S/U was now put in because of earlier episodes where she often teased and flirted with Spock.

Watch the TOS episode Mantrap--there was a major shutdown on Uhura's flirting :P I think she just got tired of him being so...Vulcan to her. Later on, he's all 'DIE KILL IT DIE' to something attacking Jim :P

Spock: Miss Uhura, your last sub-space log contained an error in the frequency column.
Uhura: Mr. Spock, sometimes I think if I hear that word frequency once more I'll cry.
Spock: Cry?
Uhura: [laughs] I was just trying to start a conversation.
Spock: Well, since it is illogical for a communications officer to resent the word frequency, I have no answer.
Uhura: No, you have an answer. I'm an illogical woman...who's beginning to feel too much a part of that communications consul. Why don't you tell me I'm an attractive young lady or ask me if I've ever been in love? Tell me how your planet Vulcan looks on a lazy evening when the moon is full.
Spock: Vulcan has no moon, Miss Uhura.
Uhura: I'm not surprised Mr. Spock

[Oni]

1) I don't think the Planet Vulcan is needed to call them for Pon Farr, I think its more of a Biological Vulcan thing (Spock Says that to Kirk too.) and its just a good place to go since its Tradition to return to place of their Birth, but since its gone they will probably find a new place to go. As for Spock being drawn to Vulcan, during his Pon Farr he was drawn to his T'Pring who was on Vulcan at the time.

2) The ship was called 'The USS Intrepid.' from the episode 'The Immunity Syndrome.' But that Plot hole about Delta Vega is just another example of how I see that the writers just made the NuTrek their own little 'Fan Fic' and not really being loyal to Gene at all.

4) I totally see Uhura having a Crush on Spock, and saw her chance. That scene in the elevator was where she must have confessed to him. But I don't see why it had to continue on, I mean he rejected her in the elevator that is great totally true to Cannon. But then had to Continue to the scene on the Transporter pad which was way to OOC for the Vulcan. Not to mention in front of Kirk. It basically felt like the writers/Directors/whoever just put it in to bash slash, and to announce 'Hey Spock is Straight! Y'all!' That scene was unnecessary, almost as unnecessary as the monsters.

6) I think T'pring is alive because she is a conniving little...witch.

I am thinking of going out to Rent some more TOS, I think I want to see that episode now. I hate Weekends because TOS isn't on up here T_T

[Sussy]

@Oni: But I don't see why it had to continue on, I mean he rejected her in the elevator that is great totally true to Cannon. But then had to Continue to the scene on the Transporter pad which was way to OOC for the Vulcan. Not to mention in front of Kirk. It basically felt like the writers/Directors/whoever just put it in to bash slash, and to announce 'Hey Spock is Straight! Y'all!' That scene was unnecessary, almost as unnecessary as the monsters.
Me neither and I also agree it was a contrived het moment on the part of the directors. I'm hoping that when the next movie comes out, Spock will be like "OH...er...yeah about that snog in the t-pad...well, see...yeah, that was...that was a one time deal." *Looks awkward, as much as Vulcans can, which is to say, stiff as a board.*

I still can see that he was totally emotionally compromised and not having much of his mental shielding up and in the works, personally, and was likely caught off guard. It keeps things canon without giving up the possibility of K/S in the future :P Worse comes to worse, I can stick celery in my ears and go LALALALA when that scene comes on again XD

About the Monster eat Monster scene--TOTALLY HOTH. I was like, wtf is this Star Wars? *checks hero list*

[Oni]

@Sussy

Yeah, I block that part from my mind. I don't know for which reason, if its for the Sake of K/S or for the fact that it completely ruins the character of Spock and Uhura. Probably both.

Your Totally Right on the Hoth thing. Writers for the movie and J.J both Admitted that they where more Star Wars Fans than Star Trek Fans. Now I was a Star Trek Fan before I was a Star Wars Fan. I know the Difference between them, and I like it for the Difference. Star wars is more of a Sci Fi Fantasy based on how airplanes did battle in the air, and Star Trek is just a plain Sci Fi based on how boats used to battle. Now they seem to just be trying to Make Star Trek into Star Wars, which is a big NO in my books.
As I said before, I will say again. If JJ wanted to do a Star Wars like Movie, he should have left Star Trek well alone, and just saved Star Wars from its creator George Lucas.

[Elanor Sarralyn]

Ahah! Found a gif of the slapping scene--yep, upper arm, somehow completely missed that, but will continue into denial.

http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss234/ElanorSarralyn/Posting/Slap.gif

[Pirate College Graduate]

@Sussy

Yeah, I block that part from my mind. I don't know for which reason, if its for the Sake of K/S or for the fact that it completely ruins the character of Spock and Uhura. Probably both.

Your Totally Right on the Hoth thing. Writers for the movie and J.J both Admitted that they where more Star Wars Fans than Star Trek Fans. Now I was a Star Trek Fan before I was a Star Wars Fan. I know the Difference between them, and I like it for the Difference. Star wars is more of a Sci Fi Fantasy based on how airplanes did battle in the air, and Star Trek is just a plain Sci Fi based on how boats used to battle. Now they seem to just be trying to Make Star Trek into Star Wars, which is a big NO in my books.
As I said before, I will say again. If JJ wanted to do a Star Wars like Movie, he should have left Star Trek well alone, and just saved Star Wars from its creator George Lucas.

Do you like the new movie overall, though?

[Oni]

Do you like the new movie overall, though?

I know I complain and complain a lot about it, but yes I do like it. I see Great potential for it. I just like to complain about what I didn't like in hopes that it will fix its self. I think I have a love hate relationship with the new movie.

[Pirate College Graduate]

There were plenty of things that could've been fixed, I'm sure. I'm sorry, but what were some of those things to you? Of course the romantic relationship (if you could call it that) thrown in randomely, the lack of Bones in the second half of the film,the fact that Jim and Spock had such animosity between them (which was NOT the case in TOS), and the lack of a strong female were some of my complaints, but overall I enjoyed it, even though I only saw it twice and can't remember much. So I see what you're saying. I have hopes that anything that was left unresolved in this film will definitely be tidied up in the next film, including Jim and Spock's relationship. I think we can definitely expect at least some bromance (unless we're successful!) between the two, and that has kept me content for the present. But I'm definitely holding this next film with high expectations.

Lindsay

[Oni]

Well some of the other things that annoyed me was
-The fact that in the beginning when Kid Kirk was driving the car there was no explanation for it, It when from tear inducing intro to POINTLESS ACTION! I had no idea what was going on, why was Kirk driving the car? There was no clear indication as to Who the voice was on the phone yelling at Kirk, and who the Heck was Johnny? And afterward there still was no explanation for it! It wasn't until I read the book did I understand that Kirk had a Step-father and the boy 'Johnny' was originally Kirk's Brother Sam.
-The Shaky Camera, I know that J.J did Cloverfeild, But C'mon! This is Star Trek! I don't want to get Motion Sickness from it!
-The some how intentional mis-creation of Vulcan, Vulcan has a Red Sun and a Red Sky. I distinctly remember a blue sky and a Yellow Sun. (These guys are apparently Star Trek fans? How can they not know that? or even do Research on it?)
-Why where their monsters on Hoth Delta Vega? Plus they kinda looked like the cloverfield monster with Hair or a change of colour. What was the point of them? Just another CGI think that J.J seems to have the hots for it seems.
-and the Amount of Lens Flair on the Enterprise, I swear I thought that Edward and and iPod where having a one night stand in Vegas it was ridiculous.

I heard that the next movie J.J won't be directing it, so I think the things that I found annoying might be gone. I really don't trust him as a Story teller, as a Special effects guy yeah, but a Story teller? No.

[Elanor Sarralyn]

As to the car scene, I think it was said somewhere else that Jim was feeling suicidal.

But, yeah. The shaky!edgy!camera action was a bit annoying--it was like, as you said, motion sickness. Aaand, yeeeaaah. Vulcan doesn't have a blue sky. *facepalm*

[Oni]

As to the car scene, I think it was said somewhere else that Jim was feeling suicidal.

But, yeah. The shaky!edgy!camera action was a bit annoying--it was like, as you said, motion sickness. Aaand, yeeeaaah. Vulcan doesn't have a blue sky. *facepalm*

That was 'Home' that said Jim was feeling suicidal, as much as I want 'Home' to be Cannon its not T_T

[Elanor Sarralyn]

Nope, I read somewhere that the whole Jim-feeling-suicidal thing is canon. I, er, squealed in delight when I found out, but it is. Heeheehee. They just didn't have time to put it in the movie--I think in the audio book or something like that, where they also said that that car had belonged to Jim's father, and that it was about to be sold against his wishes, hence why Jim was going nutters with it.

Ahah! TV Tropes says, "It's implied in the novelization that little!Kirk harbored some suicidal tendencies at that particular point."

[Pirate College Graduate]

Nope, I read somewhere that the whole Jim-feeling-suicidal thing is canon. I, er, squealed in delight when I found out, but it is. Heeheehee. They just didn't have time to put it in the movie--I think in the audio book or something like that, where they also said that that car had belonged to Jim's father, and that it was about to be sold against his wishes, hence why Jim was going nutters with it.

Ahah! TV Tropes says, "It's implied in the novelization that little!Kirk harbored some suicidal tendencies at that particular point."

So crashing it instead of letting it be sold is going to do a lot of good. :rolleyes:

[Steamcry]

Ahh! *digs out novel*

The suicidal part is indeed canon for nu!Trek:
"Having been mined for construction stone for hundreds of years, the quarry was over a hundred meters deep. Its sheer sides dropped straight down into the pool of turgid rainwater that had accumulated at the bottom. No vehicle and no driver could survive such a plunge. An easy way and a convenient place for a distraught child to put an end to anger, confusion, uncertainty, and despair. All Kirk had to do was keep going and gravity would do the rest. Keep going and..."

Kirk didn't really take the car with intention to crash it either. His older brother was the one leaving the house, and Jim was pretty upset with that and his step-father. Being a 10-11 year old child, rational decisions don't really result from those sort of feelings. The car was pretty out of control even before he got to the cliff, as well.

The movie deleted the scene with the argument in it, so it made a little less sense if you sat down and thought about it.

[DAzebras]

Here's a commentary I found that backs up the argument of how Spock/Uhura makes no sense, for those of you currently discussing it:

The mystique that surrounded Spock from the start had to do with things he was feeling but could not express: he is a deeply divided character, one who broods about where he belongs and how he relates to the other Enterprise crewmembers. But this film makes it look ridiculously easy for him to get a girl friend and he is surprisingly comfortable necking with his pretty in the transporter room, an act that it is impossible to imagine Spock prime doing. The original Spock was a deeply private person. It isn't that the new film has made Spock Sexy. The old Spock was a whole lot sexier than the new Spock for all of his hidden depths and emotional uncertainties: the new Spock is just too easy all around and there's no real mystery there. He isn't sexy; he's having sex and that's not the same thing at all.


-Henry Jenkins, http://henryjenkins.org/2009/05/five_ways_to_start_a_conversat.html

[Sussy]

Here's a commentary I found that backs up the argument of how Spock/Uhura makes no sense, for those of you currently discussing it:



-Henry Jenkins, http://henryjenkins.org/2009/05/five_ways_to_start_a_conversat.html

I'm taking this over to the other thread that's discussing some S/U K/S and SEE goals, (Poll thread).
*gives airfive*
Good find!

[DAzebras]

From the above source is a commentary of how Uhura's character is no where near all it could have been in the movie. While SEE Love is our only official project right now Lance and others have suggested that we also focus on other aspects of social equality, such as the representation of women in the flims.

I've read reviews which suggest that the Uhura in this film represents a progressive reworking of the character from classic Trek. I'm not convinced yet, even though I very much liked the actress who played the part. However limited her role might be ("hailing frequencies are open, Captain"), the original Uhura was defined first and foremost by her contributions as a member of the Enterprise Crew. Whatever subtext there was suggesting a Kirk/Uhura romance, it was just that -- a subtext -- left for fans to infer from a few telling moments in the trajectory of the series, among them, the first interracial kiss on American television -- albeit executed under mind control -- albeit an implied projection of one or both of the character's actual desires.

In the new film, Uhura asserts her professional competence but she never really demonstrates it. How does that make her different from many of the female professionals in classic Trek who are introduced in terms of their professional abilities and then reduced to being the girlfriend of the week for one of the primary characters? Here, more screen time is devoted to her but she's ultimately a love object in some kind of still to be explored romantic triangle between Kirk and Spock. Basically, she's been inserted into the story to discourage fans from writing slash stories, though most of us won't have any trouble figuring out how the exchange of women facilitates an expression of homosocial/homoerotic desire.

The classic definition of a Mary Sue is someone who is claimed to have extraordinary mental abilities, who manages to gain the romantic interests of multiple members of the crew, and who manages to have the information needed to save the ship. In way sense, then, is the new Uhura anything other than a Mary Sue figure in the body of an established character? Surely after forty plus years, Trek can imagine a more compelling female character.


-Henry Jenkins, http://henryjenkins.org/2009/05/five_ways_to_start_a_conversat.html

Face it, Uhura was the only female character in the film that had any chance of being admirable, and she failed. Personally, I find this a bit offensive, when I think about it. The only other female [besides people's mothers] that had any lines was Gaila, Kirk's Orion bedmate. And let's be realistic. It's pretty much assured that she died in the massive destruction of half the fleet. As for Chapel, she wasn't even onscreen, though McCoy did yell something to her off to the side in one scene.

It's pitiful.

[DAzebras]

I'm taking this over to the other thread that's discussing some S/U K/S and SEE goals, (Poll thread).
*gives airfive*
Good find!

Yay! I wasn't sure where the best place for it was, but I figured somebody'd find it here.

[Oni]

Thank goodness some one else sees the OOC ness of the new Spock too. His Relationship with Mary SuHura is just bad thinking on everyone involved with it, Why did no one stop them? It was so Obvious that it was Bad! and it ruins how TOS Spock was. Of Course they will go with the 'But its an Alternate Reality!' until the Cows come home, It still makes it a bad idea, pointless, and just WRONG!

I'm sorry NuSpock, but Spock Prime still has my heart.

[spookyfbi]

@ Oni
I agree completely that S/U is way OOC for Spock. Every time I think about it, I can't help but think of the scene in The Naked Time where Spock says that his FRIENDSHIP for Jim was shameful to him. Friendship. Shameful. It seemed to take him until TMP to realize that his feelings of friendship (and possibly/probably more) were indeed not shameful and in fact logical and necessary. Now, suddenly, Mr Feelings-Are-Shameful has a GIRLFRIEND?! Uhm, no.
Even if they'd decided to go along the K/S route instead of S/U, I still would've been a bit 'huh?' if there hadn't been at heast SOME of that internal 'I am a Vulcan, emotions are shameful' debate going on.
I'm wondering what Leonard Nimoy thought when he first learned about it. I bet no one told him before it premiered.

[Oni]

I bet that their explanation of the OOC-ness is the fact that its an 'Alternate Universe.' I am getting so sick of that excuse! Why can't they just admit that they had no idea how to write for Spock, or even to re-invent him in a way that honors Nimoy's Spcok?
The more I think about it, the more I like original TOS. Maybe that guy is right, because of that movie more people will appreciate the original Series and realize how badly they made Spock and Uhura. And they will change them in the new movie.

[Steamcry]

Personally, I'm willing to roll with the new concepts of characters. I love things being reinvented simply because I love to analyze the differences of where they're coming from (sup engineering seeping into other things).

Don't get me wrong here, I do love the whole Kirk and Spock relationship, but I'll take in other variences too. To me, Spock is having a much harder time handling himself simply because of obvious transpired events. He's also much younger this time around, as opposed to when he met Jim before with the Enterprise. Uhura was likely shoved in the backround because the story is about Kirk and Spock at this point (and likely a comic sort of thing to appeal to modern people). And because I see nu!Trek 2009 as only the introduction to a story, I'm pretty resevered on not making a judgment on its overall quality until it progresses more.

Also, I do recommend reading the novelization of nu!Trek. It does deal more in-depth with issues than the movie does, and it explains the missing peices of scenes and characters. We watched a movie, not a on-going TV show. It's hard to compare the hours of character development at this time because it's completely lopsided.

[spookyfbi]

@ Steamcry
I can buy the alternate universe thing too, but only to a certain exent. For example, the differences in Kirk are perfctly fine since it's obvious that George Kirk was probably a role model for Jim, and obviously played a huge part in making Kirk the kind of man that he is. But I have to wonder how George Kirk's death could have had such far reaching consequences. Why did it affect the other characters so much? Especially Spock, who grew up on an entirely different planet? I mean, once we get to the events of the movie, sure, his mother's death and the distruction of Vulcan would definitely change Spock. Spock Prime never had to deal with that, so NuSpock will be different. But he was with Uhura BEFORE that happened. What caused him to suddenly be all 'ok, emotions are fine, I can totally have a girlfriend and not be ashamed of feeling love n' stuff...' Do they explain that in the novel?

[Steamcry]

Spock is pretty young in nu!Trek, while Spock Prime had time to center himself. nu!Spock is more than likely still struggling with his human versus vulcan heritage and is simply more susceptible to revealing his emotional side. Nero made a huge impact on the universe by coming back in time and destroying the USS Kelvin, which is pretty evident in the fact that all the characters met before they were supposed to.

In TOS it was fairly evident for awhile that Uhura had an interest in Spock and made several attempts to appeal to his human emotional side. Spock was old enough to have himself centered and secure by then though, so nothing really came of it. In nu!Trek because they met much younger, it stands to reason that the same motions came into play.. but this time were actually more successful.

I just think it's a series of circumstances that changed the relationship is all really. My only concern with my own reasoning is the problem that we don't know Uhura Prime's reasons for starting the academy, so it's hard to deduce if it was Nero that made her start Starfleet Academy earlier in nu!Trek (thus kicking off the relationship with Spock) than she did in the Prime universe.

In the novel, it's not really explained as so much elaborated, if that makes any sense. It's quite obvious that Spock cares for her before boarding on the Enterprise. Their interaction makes it seem as if they've been together for a decent amount of time at least too. :\

...of course, Kirk and Spock just haven't really had the chance to meet yet. >.>;

And on another note, going through the book to make sure (I found it amusing, can't believe I forgot about it.):
Kirk: "Have you taken the test Commander Spork?"
"Spock. As a Vulcan, I require no additional training to control my narcissism when making command decisions."

[Mikkiness]

I'd just gotten to that part when my ipod was confiscated, That's kinda why I was caught doing things I should not have been doing at 2am, I was laughing so hard my mum heard me from the other side of the house.

[art.nerd]

Kirk: "Have you taken the test Commander Spork?"
"Spock. As a Vulcan, I require no additional training to control my narcissism when making command decisions."

YESSS...I read (well, actually heard, since I have the audiobook) that part the other day! I was listening to it at the gym, and I can only imagine the strange looks I was getting because I was laughing so much. XD That whole chapter was full of wonderfully hilarious quotes!

[Mikkiness]

Yes! the audio book is what I have as well, do you have any idea how wonderful it is for me to hear multi syllabic words after all this time? I almost cried when I was listening to it.

[Steamcry]

I've been trying to hunt down the audio book so I can have both, but I've had absolutely no luck in the matter. :(

And I've learned to laugh in my throat, so it doesn't wake up the rest of the household in the middle of the night. It comes from years of sneaking onto the computer after my parents were asleep when I was still in middle school. Though this has apparently caused me to be able to laugh in my sleep occasionally as well (and boy does it creep people out, haha).

[Mikkiness]

Normally I do, but then I suddenly heard that line and I just burst out laughing. I got mine off bit torrent, it took a couple of hours, but the quality is really good.

[spookyfbi]

That thing about Spoc being younger and therefore more emotional... I'm not entirely sure that makes sense. We see Spock even younger towards the begining of the movie, and for the most part he seems to have a pretty good hanle on his emotions until the bullies insult his mother. I mean, in his interations with the bullies up until that part, they seem more emotional than he does.
Also, in This Side Of Paradise, we learn that Spock was once aquainted with Leila Kalomi, and she tried to get Spock to want to be with her just like you're suggesting that NuUhura might have done, but Leila was not successful. Why would that change in NuTrek?

PS- That Spork thing is pure win! There are times when I think that the writers know exactly what's going on and are just messing with us on purpose.

[Oni]

Also, in This Side Of Paradise, we learn that Spock was once aquainted with Leila Kalomi, and she tried to get Spock to want to be with her just like you're suggesting that NuUhura might have done, but Leila was not successful. Why would that change in NuTrek?

You get a Cookie for that! ;)

Spock Prime probably did experiment with human type relationships during his time at academy(Like Leila) but probably found them not very stimulating or challenging because he would probably have made his decisions based on logic, and simply saw them as a hindrance at his job. So he would have probably did the logical thing and simply decided to no longer seek any kind of relationship/friendship of any kind and just waited for his first Pon Farr to happen so he could go off and marry T'Pring. Then when he met Kirk he learned how it was to feel challenged in a relationship and to value the emotions that came with it.

I like Spock Prime because he has all these issues about his Vulcan and human side and dealing with the emotions that are inside of him, and sort of keeps you on your toes to see how he deals with them. With NuSpock I don't feel the conflict in those emotions, and that there was a quick fix for him to realize 'Hey its okay to feel!' there is no emotional challenge and it doesn't keep me on my toes.

[Andrina]

You get a Cookie for that! ;)

Spock Prime probably did experiment with human type relationships during his time at academy(Like Leila) but probably found them not very stimulating or challenging because he would probably have made his decisions based on logic, and simply saw them as a hindrance at his job. So he would have probably did the logical thing and simply decided to no longer seek any kind of relationship/friendship of any kind and just waited for his first Pon Farr to happen so he could go off and marry T'Pring. Then when he met Kirk he learned how it was to feel challenged in a relationship and to value the emotions that came with it.

I like Spock Prime because he has all these issues about his Vulcan and human side and dealing with the emotions that are inside of him, and sort of keeps you on your toes to see how he deals with them. With NuSpock I don't feel the conflict in those emotions, and that there was a quick fix for him to realize 'Hey its okay to feel!' there is no emotional challenge and it doesn't keep me on my toes.

I agree!! In the original series when Spock showed emotion for Jim or anyone, it was a big deal and took your breath away. I don't think it would have the same affect in the new movies.

[Elanor Sarralyn]

I agree!! In the original series when Spock showed emotion for Jim or anyone, it was a big deal and took your breath away. I don't think it would have the same affect in the new movies.

Yes! Precisely. Like Amok Time, that huge grin of his--it had such and impact because Spock was emotionless so much. With nu!Spock, I feel that it would have a much lesser effect--although we never see him smile, we do see him displaying rather more emotion than Spock Prime and as such the impact wouldn't be as great.

[Sussy]

El:
we do see him displaying rather more emotion than Spock Prime and as such the impact wouldn't be as great.

Yeah, I just sort of look at it like Spock missed his growing up period with Pike and now we get to see him a bit out of the can--and also, NOW WITH MORE ANGST. [Still not agreeing 100% with the -amount- of emotion...but...yeah anyway I'm not going to rehash the TPad scene again] I'm hoping they do put the lid on him a bit more in the next one though, personally. I like to watch Spock seethe just below the surface as much as anyone, but there has to be some Vulcan-ness as well.

I'm still for that scene where he told off the Council--that level of Spock-emote I can see growing into the witty guy we know from TOS with the added rawness. SpockPrime manages, but had to go through alot to get there...compare with:

Spock: If I were human, I believe my response would be: 'go to hell'. If I were human.
The Final Frontier

I still love Quinto as Spock >.<

[Elanor Sarralyn]

Spock: If I were human, I believe my response would be: 'go to hell'. If I were human.
The Final Frontier

I still love Quinto as Spock >.<

So do I. Quinto...god, the entire cast is too shiny for me not to love them. Spock Prime also has these hilarious, slightly embarrassing "hypocritical" moments--like with the tribbles, "Fortunately, of course, I am immune to its effect. *pets*"

With nu!Spock, though, you get fantastic moments like that "Live long and prosper" to the Vulcan Science Academy. It was so perfect.

[Oni]

NuSpock just isn't my type of Spock. Angst just isn't something Spock would do. I hope they fix that in the next movie.

I'd take a Nimoy over a Quinto any day.

[Andrina]

As much as I wanted to be a Nimoy Purist, I loved Quinto's Spock too. He was a litttle OOC but he was hot doing it! :)

[Lindz]

I'd take a Nimoy over a Quinto any day.

Oh, so would I. In a heartbeat. I find him sexier than Quinto too, actually. I always have. With NimoySpock, he always had the facade of "100% Vulcan" and I agree that when Spock did something even remotely human it would shock all of us with pure happiness because it was just so unexpected. With QuintoSpock it's like "Oh...he's angsting again. Where's the Kleenex?"

[Tullia]

What can I say, I love them both! They're so different but in a way I can see how both nu!Spock and nu!Kirk would mature into their familiar TOS incarnations: they both even out, Spock gets warmer and Kirk gets cooler, mostly from their relationship with each other. *puts rant-cap on* And that's another reason why the Spock/Uhura thing absolutely cannot last, because, even if you think it's just an intense friendship, the relationship between Kirk and Spock really is what defines them both- they both draw on the strengths of each other, they're the primary influences on each other, they need each other in order to be who they are, and it's that bond that's the beating heart of Star Trek as we know and love it. *removes rant-cap* Ahem. That said, at the end of the day Nimoy is Spock and Spock is Nimoy... but Quinto does an awfully good job filling awfully big shoes.

[Oni]

I never watched Heroes, so I didn't even know who Quinto was before I saw Star Trek. I talked with another girl once about how we did not like the New Spock, one of the things we talked about is the amount of fans we saw in the theater going 'OMG! SYLAR I LUV YOU!' and came up with that most of the people where watching him though 'Sylar glasses.' and not 'Star trek Glasses.' so they did not see or know how Spock was supposed to act and simply fell for him because of 'Heroes'
Of course some will argue about that, but that just what I think about some of the fans. I think Quinto has potential, but he wasn't quite at the right level of Spock for me. They need to Mature him a bit more.

[Lindz]

I like Quinto's Spock, but my like for him doesn't even compare to my love for Nimoy's. Because I liked Quinto's Spock so much, I thought I would give Heroes a try and I'm completely hooked on it now. I managed to watch all the episodes. Sylar fangirls only seeing Star Trek for Quinto is just....ugh....at least familiarize yourself with Trek a little first, y'know?

[Pirate College Graduate]

Random soundtrack question: what part of the film does "Labor of Love" play? It's so pretty. And the very beginning of "That New Car Smell"? Makes me cry. Anyone know about that part in the film? It's been bugging me all day.

Lindsay.

[Sussy]

Random soundtrack question: And the very beginning of "That New Car Smell"? Makes me cry.
Lindsay.

Me too, I love the ehru. I -think- they play that part when Spock meets himself at the end of the movie...it plays somewhen else too but I can't recall but it has to do with Vulcan, for sure.

Do they play Labour of Love during the final battle >.<

[Pirate College Graduate]

Me too, I love the ehru. I -think- they play that part when Spock meets himself at the end of the movie...it plays somewhen else too but I can't recall but it has to do with Vulcan, for sure.

Do they play Labour of Love during the final battle >.<

What's "ehru"? And is Uhura sometimes spelled "Uhuru"? I've seen it like that twice now

I think I get what an ehru is now. And it's not that that gets me. It's the xylophone instrument around 26-60seconds. So.... Beautiful.

[Lindz]

It's the xylophone instrument around 26-60seconds. So.... Beautiful.

Actually I think it's the string-type instrument that begins playing Spock's theme around that time. It is, indeed, a really beautiful song, but what's with the name?!

(Here's the song if anyone wants to hear it:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWVRL-od7xk

[Pirate College Graduate]

reading through Livejournal expectations for the second film. Someone mentioned S/U marriage. the idea broke my heart. BROKE it. If this happens, would there be ANY hope for us? Perhaps spock didn't want to but had to..? At least we'd have the TOS-verse.

thoughts?

Lindsay

[art.nerd]

Ah, I read that too. And yes, it made me sad as well.
I guess there's not much else to say other than I just don't like that idea.
Plain and simple.

And I was thinking today, trying to pinpoint what exactly it is about S/U that bothers me so much.
I think what I dislike the most is just Uhura's character, rather than the fact that she's Spock's necklace. (but don't get me wrong-- I detest that as well)
Trying to reimagine the situation, but with TOS Uhura instead...I found that while I still didn't think it was right, it didn't bother me as much.
I mean, seriously, think about how completely different nu!Uhura and TOS!Uhura are.
Very, right?
And I think...if she had been written to be more like she was in TOS, then one of two things could have happened: 1) The writers would still have written S/U...(and this is just my opinion here, but I think TOS Uhura is much more likeable and personable) but you wouldn't be so outraged because you actually like Uhura. Or 2) S/U would not have been written in the first place because Uhura's characterization would not have allowed for it. I think she still would have been sympathetic and friendly towards Spock after the Vulcan incident, but she wouldn't have been selfish enough to make romantic advances.

But again...this is just my opinion.
It wasn't entirely thought through...

[Oni]

I think the reason why I don't like her very much is because some where in the 40 years of Uhura's creation. Uhura went under a sueification. Which is why I call the nuUhura Mary SueHura.

Canon-Sue

The term "canon-Sue" (also written as canon!Sue) or "Possession Sue" is used to describe canon characters who are changed significantly from their original canon characterization and sometimes even divorced from their original context completely. Such characters are seen as having been heavily idealized to the point of being more of a stand-in for the author's wish fulfillment than being the original canon character.

Characters most frequently labeled "canon-Sues" often develop over-the-top traits associated with "Mary Sues" with little precedent or explanation, a process sometimes called "sueification." Some examples are the discoveries of tragic pasts and abilities superior to other canon characters, the elimination or romanticization of flaws, and being antagonized by characters disliked by the fan-author while befriended by canon characters liked by the author - regardless of how friendly or unfriendly they were before. If the "canon-Sue" deviates enough from the original, it may be referred to jocularly as an act of "canon rape" - a term often used when a significant (and disliked) change has been made to the canon world or characters, such as when a former hero is vilified without explanation, a character who is unpopular in the canon receives a make-over and becomes popular, or a usually-chaste canon character is easily seduced by a fan-created "Mary Sue" character. Even in alternate universe stories where the premise involves examining how the story might play out differently if characters behaved differently, many readers criticize such changes as being too extreme.

Oh god, if S/U do get married I am disowning the New Trek and hiding in the past.

[Elanor Sarralyn]

Oh god, if S/U do get married I am disowning the New Trek and hiding in the past.

I'm following you there. Just...gah. At the very least, Spock and Kirk need to develop that kind of deep, intimate camaraderie that they had in TOS, and--maybe I'm being overly naive and romantic and entirely selfish about it, but if Uhura's there, I feel that she's going to impede it. Not even any romance; just that deep friendship TOS!Jim and TOS!Spock undeniably had.

[Sussy]

Even in alternate universe stories where the premise involves examining how the story might play out differently if characters behaved differently, many readers criticize such changes as being too extreme.
Bada Bing...bada boom.

Not even any romance; just that deep friendship TOS!Jim and TOS!Spock undeniably had.

I don't know, I thought some if it was quite romantic. *sigh* Then again, I have to remind myself there are different kinds of love, and the definition of romance is probably different for everyone :P Greeks had different words for different types of love. I'm still thinking, with all that soul talk and whatnot, that...it points to the second one.

Agape: is used in ancient texts to denote feelings for a good meal, one's children, and the feelings for a spouse. It can be described as the feeling of being content or holding one in high regard.

Eros: passionate love, with sensual desire and longing. However, eros does not have to be sexual in nature. Eros can be interpreted as a love for someone whom you love more than the philia, love of friendship. It can also apply to dating relationships as well as marriage. Plato refined his own definition: Although eros is initially felt for a person, with contemplation it becomes an appreciation of the beauty within that person, or even becomes appreciation of beauty itself. It should be noted Plato does not talk of physical attraction as a necessary part of love, hence the use of the word platonic to mean, "without physical attraction." Plato also said eros helps the soul recall knowledge of beauty, and contributes to an understanding of spiritual truth. Lovers and philosophers are all inspired to seek truth by eros.

Philia: It is a dispassionate virtuous love, a concept developed by Aristotle. It includes loyalty to friends, family, and community, and requires virtue, equality and familiarity.

Storge: It is natural affection, like that felt by parents for offspring.It is also known to express mere acceptance or putting up with situations, as in "loving" the tyrant.

Thelema: It is the desire to do something, to be occupied, or to be in prominence.

Xenia: an almost ritualized friendship formed between a host and his guest, who could previously have been strangers. The host fed and provided quarters for the guest, who was expected to repay only with gratitude

[Oni]

I'm following you there. Just...gah. At the very least, Spock and Kirk need to develop that kind of deep, intimate camaraderie that they had in TOS, and--maybe I'm being overly naive and romantic and entirely selfish about it, but if Uhura's there, I feel that she's going to impede it. Not even any romance; just that deep friendship TOS!Jim and TOS!Spock undeniably had.

Oh god don't be, that's exactly how I feel. Uhura and Spock relationship just should not be there, at all. It Impedes the S&K relationship that Gene emphasized on so much in TOS. (and in TAS if you watch it, seriously) it is just pointless and in very bad taste on the writers. It just proved to me how immature of writers they really are.

[Lindz]

Oh god don't be, that's exactly how I feel. Uhura and Spock relationship just should not be there, at all. It Impedes the S&K relationship that Gene emphasized on so much in TOS. (and in TAS if you watch it, seriously) it is just pointless and in very bad taste on the writers. It just proved to me how immature of writers they really are.

I completely agree with both of you. It's almost as if they just threw in a relationship just to make the movie more interesting. Hell, the movie would have been more interesting if Kirk and Spock's friendship could have developed throughout the film, which it didn't. It was like they hated each other until the very end of the movie. What made them stop hating each other, anyway? All of the sudden they liked each other after Kirk emotionally compromised him...

Anyway, back to S/U, I think that if that argument was to be addressed by the nuWriters, they would just argue that "this isn't Gene's Star Trek" which really irritates me to the point where I can't really find words. Oni, Mary SueHura is pretty accurate there. She doesn't really have any key personality traits to make her actually a respectable character in the new movie.

Oh and I also agree that if Spock and Uhura get married I am totally disowning New Trek and probably selling my Burger King glasses on Ebay 20 years from now. Haha.

[art.nerd]

Oh and I also agree that if Spock and Uhura get married I am totally disowning New Trek and probably selling my Burger King glasses on Ebay 20 years from now. Haha.

You should. XD

[Oni]

I am kinda wishing that I bought the BK glasses, but that would mean going to BK, and I hate BK >_<

[Lindz]

I am kinda wishing that I bought the BK glasses, but that would mean going to BK, and I hate BK >_<

Ew, I don't even eat fast food. I find it disgusting now. My dad went with my sister, and he called me when I was in the middle of filming something and said, "Do you want those Star Trek glasses" and I spazzed out. Haha. So now I have all of them sitting neatly in a row right above me! It's awesome. Of course I actually cherish my Star Trek Pez Collection and my Trouble With Tribbles Hallmark ornament more...

[talesofsomething]

I went to Burger King just so I could get the glasses. Well, one glass. I went up to the counter and I was like, "Bitch, gimme a Spock glass."

Actually, I was too embarrassed to say I wanted it. So my mom did it. **shame**

And then I got a Romulan Warbird toy. And my sister got Chekov. And she won't quit bugging me with it. She keeps pressing it and pressing it and pressing it and....

Okay. I'm gonna stop being an idiot now.

[Oni]

When I went and saw the movie in theaters, they had one of those popcorn deals with a bucket and a cup so I got that.
I went out on the town and bought me some Spock and Kirk Action Figures today :D I also bought Spock Prime, because he is made of sad and needs love.

[Lindz]

I went out on the town and bought me some Spock and Kirk Action Figures today :D I also bought Spock Prime, because he is made of sad and needs love.

Oh, If I had those- BWAHH!! *catches self* What is WITH me?! I sound like an utter perv! *sigh* I do wish I had them just to add to my little collection.

Oh I have one of those little Burger King Kirks and all he says is "Kirk to Enterprise" when you press him...and my sister also presses him over and over and over and over. *twitch*

[Oni]

Oh, If I had those- BWAHH!! *catches self* What is WITH me?! I sound like an utter perv! *sigh* I do wish I had them just to add to my little collection.


I know where your going with that, and just to let you know I already did it...

What else are girls going to do with Action figures?

[Lindz]

What else are girls going to do with Action figures?

Hm...you have a point. Not only that but what else would slash fangirls do with action figures? XD

[Elanor Sarralyn]

Oh I have one of those little Burger King Kirks and all he says is "Kirk to Enterprise" when you press him...and my sister also presses him over and over and over and over. *twitch*

I WANT ONE OF THOSE.

:eek:

Or those Spock and Kirk bobbleheads.

[SpirkTrekker42]

I got the Pon Farr playset... err rather TOS Kirk and Spock action figures from Amok Time complete with Lirpas and the funky looking Vulcan marriage gong. Kirk even has his shirt ripped! :D I have so much fun with those two. But I really want the 2009 Kirk and Spock!! Maybe they'll come with slashy accessories too...

[Lindz]

I got the Pon Farr playset...

PFF- Pon Farr ~*playset*~. That does sound like lots of fun...and naturally right after I read that bit my mind sunk into the gutter again.

[Oni]

PFF- Pon Farr ~*playset*~. That does sound like lots of fun...and naturally right after I read that bit my mind sunk into the gutter again.

Just stay there and I will join you. *takes off her shoes*

[Elanor Sarralyn]

I'm coming too!

*polishes slash goggles*

[SpirkTrekker42]

Someone made a thread on LJ about this particular action figure set. Ah, I wish I could find it! There was a really funny joke about the choking warning on the box (this means you, Jim Kirk!) ;)

[Lindz]

I'm coming too!

*polishes slash goggles*

ROFL- I love you guys.

Well...here we are...in the gutter...this is exciting! Look!! Kirk and Spock floating downstream! XD

[Pirate College Graduate]

ROFL- I love you guys.

Well...here we are...in the gutter...this is exciting! Look!! Kirk and Spock floating downstream! XD

....Are they perchance naked, floating down stream? :D

Lindsay

[Elle]

-waits with soap and towels-

[Elanor Sarralyn]

*joins the waiting with Vulcan body paint at hand*

[Elle]

-sets out snack table- We might be here a while, Elanor. -munches on carrot sticks and ranch dressing-

[Pirate College Graduate]

Holy shit! They're coming now! Everyone get ready!

[Elle]

-whips out camera- omgyay.

[Pirate College Graduate]

Wait....what are they doing as they come down the sewer?

[Elle]

And why did I set out a snack table in a sewer?

[Elanor Sarralyn]

Who wants to arrange for something to hurt Spock or Jim so the other can freak out adorably?

[Mikkiness]

Quickly throws a pebble at the back of Kirk's head, the resulting OWW! and subsequent actions are very much worth it, but should not be typed out in a school computer lab.

[Elle]

-rapidly snaps pictures- But seriously, could we pick a less-sexy place than a sewer? We really need to rename this gutter. Or, name some room the Gutter.

[Lindz]

And why did I set out a snack table in a sewer?

Sex makes you hungry, of course! What if Jimmy Boy starts craving?!? XD

Who wants to arrange for something to hurt Spock or Jim so the other can freak out adorably?


ROFL- Can you imagine a huge team of Spirk fangirls plotting to kidnap one of them to make the other go on an epic rescue mission?

*lightbulb appears* Fan fic, anyone?! Hahaha...

Oh and who are we imagining here? 'Cause I'm definitely imagining Shatner/Nimoy! Uh oh, wrong thread! *runs away* TO THE OLD GUTTER!

[Elanor Sarralyn]

ROFL- Can you imagine a huge team of Spirk fangirls plotting to kidnap one of them to make the other go on an epic rescue mission?

YES.

WE SHOULD DO THAT SOMETIME.

Who to hurt first? And how?

Hmmmmm.

I think we should start off small, and then work our way up to a full-blown Jim/Spock majorly freaking out. :eek:

[Elle]

Would collab-story go in fanfic or gen chat? hmmm

[Mikkiness]

good questions, very good questions... Start with Jim, then Spock will go absolutely crazy. I saw a prompt on the kinkmeme, part of which went...
SHOOT IT, SHOOT IT, KILL IT, KILL IT -- YOU'RE NOT SHOOTING IT FAST ENOUGH! OH, ***** EVERYBODY, THROW ROCKS AT THE JIM THREATENER!
I wanna see that!

And put it in gen I guess

[Elle]

Someone go make the thread so I don't feel weird about posting two threads really fast!

[Lindz]

Someone go make the thread so I don't feel weird about posting two threads really fast!

Done!

http://www.seetreklove.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3622#post3622

This is going to be so silly.

[Oni]

Okay, I'm gonna breath some life back into this thread.

Sybok and Sam. Spock's half brother and Jim's older brother, I actually really hope that in the next movie we get to see some mention of the two. Or even have them feature in the plot some how in the progression of Spock and Kirk's bond that leads them to feel closer than brothers.

Discuss how you feel towards an idea of Sybok and Sam featured in the next movie.

[spookyfbi]

I really want Sam to exist in this universe, because if he doesn't then that means that Peter Kirk, the first almost canon gay character in Trek, also won't exist.

[Oni]

I really want Sam to exist in this universe, because if he doesn't then that means that Peter Kirk, the first almost canon gay character in Trek, also won't exist.

Sam was originally supposed to be in XI, he was originally the kid on the side of the road that Young Kirk waved to. But for some reason they changed it and made him 'Johnny.'
The reason they did this? I have no idea.

[spookyfbi]

I have heard that, but ultimately he isn't Sam now. And yeah, no idea what changing him to Johnny adds to the plot at all...

[Oni]

Since Sam was born BEFORE Nero showed up and messed up the time line, then he should still exist, same going for Sybok

Here's some questions for people to ponder! Boy will it confuse some people and probably cause cross-eyed-ness!

Since the reason why the nu-Universe was created was because of Time Travel from the Prime Universe and has changed the Future. Does this mean that in the Future Prime Universe where they traveled back in time BEFORE the Nero incident never happened? And all the incidents that they(Prime) created to progress the time line be erased as well? And what will that do?

Will V'Ger and the Whale Probe still attack Earth? They are forces bigger than Nero's technology and would not have simply been destroyed by Nero. They are large masses so they must be slow, but where probably already on their way to earth at the point of Nero's arrival from across the Galaxy, Nero's actions probably did not effect them at all.

[Steamcry]

Since Sam was born BEFORE Nero showed up and messed up the time line, then he should still exist, same going for Sybok

Here's some questions for people to ponder! Boy will it confuse some people and probably cause cross-eyed-ness!

Since the reason why the nu-Universe was created was because of Time Travel from the Prime Universe and has changed the Future. Does this mean that in the Future Prime Universe where they traveled back in time BEFORE the Nero incident never happened? And all the incidents that they(Prime) created to progress the time line be erased as well? And what will that do?

Also, alternate universes can be created by someone blinking at a different time. That's all it takes! That doesn't mean that the universe itself will take a completely new path necessarily, however. Quantum Physics theory yadayada.

Will V'Ger and the Whale Probe still attack Earth? They are forces bigger than Nero's technology and would not have simply been destroyed by Nero. They are large masses so they must be slow, but where probably already on their way to earth at the point of Nero's arrival from across the Galaxy, Nero's actions probably did not effect them at all.

(Excuse me if I sound incoherent. I just got woken up on 3 hours of sleep and the coffee hasn't hit my system yet, so I'm still part zombie.)

Jim's brother was properly named George (Sam is supposed to be his middle name) in the novel. I have no idea why they decided to use the name Johnny in the movie, but I do know it irked me.

And it's quite possible that V'Ger and the Whale Probe will make a return as the time line obviously tries to right itself in several instances. What we don't know is if the changes were big enough to push the universe in a completely different direction, or if the time will continue to push known factors into play. It should be YEARS before any of these are seen though, judging from the age differences of the crew now compared to then.

[Oni]

I know his names George, but Jim calls him Sam and I like saying the name Sam instead of George.

I am starting to think that because of all the time questions and the already well defined universe that was built after TOS, and to try and keep the fans of those series happy (They changed the universe by destroying Vulcan, so that means some one some where in a certain series must no longer exists, Trekkers had to have realized this when J.J did the AU thing.), That maybe like what the novel says, 'that time will attempt to repair its self' and that the actions taken in the new movies will ultimately lead to where the original 6 movies start, Working sort of like a prequel.

[spookyfbi]

So then... if the whole V'Ger thing is still going to happen... Will Spock still mind-meld with it? Wasn't it because he was so logical after doing the Kolinahr that V'Ger reached out to him in the first place? I don't see NuSpock going down that road... Would the events of TMP be workable with the NuTrek characters? (let's not even get into how the 'simple feeling' scene would play out... as in, wouldn't Uhura be there instead of/as well as Kirk? and who's hand would NuSpock reach out for?)

[Oni]

So then... if the whole V'Ger thing is still going to happen... Will Spock still mind-meld with it? Wasn't it because he was so logical after doing the Kolinahr that V'Ger reached out to him in the first place? I don't see NuSpock going down that road... Would the events of TMP be workable with the NuTrek characters? (let's not even get into how the 'simple feeling' scene would play out... as in, wouldn't Uhura be there instead of/as well as Kirk? and who's hand would NuSpock reach out for?)

Well who knows? Whose to say that down the road that Uhura won't break up with Spock causing him to question emotions and try to drive them out again. Only to realize that other people(Kirk) care/love for him as well, and that he shouldn't fight those feelings.

[Oni]

This is really pissing me off lately, and it will only go away if I write it down. Am I the only one who is pissed off about Vulcan's sky being blue instead of being red? And taking the account that the Alternate universe shared a similar Time line up to the point when it was created differently at the point when Kirk was born and Nero destroyed the Calvin, and NOT when Vulcan or Vulcan's red Sun was created, that Vulcan should have still had a Red Sky. And don't give me the crap that 'they did not have the Special effects to do it.' J.J had plenty of Lens Flair yet turning the Sky from Blue to Red was out of his reach. Besides They where able to do it in 'Search for Spock' and in 'the voyage home', J.J Fails at doing research on his subject of his movie. >_< This is why as a Trek Fan I am worried about the fate of the franchise in his Hands.

[spookyfbi]

The writers have done their research, though. So all inconsistencies will be mostly visual, not plot wise.
One thing that annoyed me was that the close ups of the Kelvin at the very begining showed it to be not-smooth. That was something they specifically said in the special features of TMP. They could afford to make a bigger model, and the one thing that Roddenberry said was that it should be smooth, unlike the close-ups of the Star Wars ships where you see all the in-&-out bits on the ships. He thought the ships should be smooth because it would be more efficient. But yeah, for the most part visual things don't bother me nearly as much as plot inconsistencies. And hey, in the original cut of TMP, Vulcan had 3 moons!

[Oni]

And hey, in the original cut of TMP, Vulcan had 3 moons!

This makes me feel a bit better about the blue sky now, mistakes happen (Kind of like Kirk's blue eyes), thanks I guess I just needed some one to remind me of that again. I guess I felt kind of like a Brody from Undergrads (Continuity Error! Continuity Error! I watch the movie Good!)

[Elanor Sarralyn]

Hrm. Well, this is an abrupt change of subject, but I just went and read about half of the novelisation of XI, and I have to say--I love Uhura. So much.

I didn't like her much in the movie, I will confess. But in the book, she's awesome. At times in the movie, I felt that she could slip a bit into the bitchy side--but in the book, she never does. At least in my head, she doesn't. Erm. I dunno how to describe it, but like her scenes with Kirk and Spock, etc.--it's a lot easier to read/watch now that you know what she's thinking. And I cackled when the communications officer couldn't differentiate between Romulan and Vulcan, but Uhura knew all three dialects. Hah!

[Oni]

I found it funny, that in the original TOS and following Star Treks, Romulanus was a mystery because Romulans where so Xenophopic that they did not want to contact anyone especially the federation, and in XI the Federations knows the language enough to teach it and its dialects. I actually added that she knew the languages and the dialects up as proof that she came off as too much of a Sue.

Which once again I will bring it up, in the 25 years since the XI universe split from the prime universe, how did the Federation some how poke holes into the stubborn and unbreakable Romulan shell to do that? It took Spock Prime around 80 years to finally get the romulans to agree to tolerance in his unification effort, how the heck did was the Federation able to go over there and learn the language without getting killed?

[spookyfbi]

I found it funny, that in the original TOS and following Star Treks, Romulanus was a mystery because Romulans where so Xenophopic that they did not want to contact anyone especially the federation, and in XI the Federations knows the language enough to teach it and its dialects. I actually added that she knew the languages and the dialects up as proof that she came off as too much of a Sue.

Which once again I will bring it up, in the 25 years since the XI universe split from the prime universe, how did the Federation some how poke holes into the stubborn and unbreakable Romulan shell to do that? It took Spock Prime around 80 years to finally get the romulans to agree to tolerance in his unification effort, how the heck did was the Federation able to go over there and learn the language without getting killed?

I actually brought this up on the TOS rewatch when we got to Balance of Terror http://community.livejournal.com/tos_rewatch/8396.html?thread=333260#t333260
I think it makes a lot of sense that the Vulcans already knew about the Romulans, and after the Kelvin incident, they decided to speak up about it to the Federation.

[estellestafford]

I was wondering where to go to find out info on star trek, I want to know about the technology stuff, like the different warp drives, and the names of the different devices they use. I like to know more about the culture aspects of Vulcan. I read a lot of stuff in fanfiction and just want to know what is canon and what is fandom.

[Spock]

Perhaps you could try Memory-Alpha. Star Trek wiki

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Portal:Main

There is plenty of information on this website. I hope you can find what you're looking for.

[estellestafford]

Oh exactly what I was looking for thank you so much!