Let's do our homework this time

[aolian]

Okay, guys, I feel pretty strongly about this. I am sorry if anything I say here offends everyone, but I would really like to share some thoughts.

On getting to know the LGBT community:

In sophomore year, a year after getting into slash, I was curious enough to take an LGBT studies class. I was reaally ignorant at the time. That class was where I met gay, lesbian, bi, and transgendered people for the first time on anything beyond a theoretical level. I was nervous the whole four hour period, afraid of stepping on toes, and my thoughts were all along the lines of, "oh my god, that's an actual gay guy sitting next to me." ('Actual gay guy' turned out to be super nice and poked fun at me for being so nervous the entire time. :p)

It was an awesome class, and I learned about the history of gay rights and heard the term 'people of color' for the first time. The only maybe-mention I heard of slash was an offhand comment about 'forty year old, straight women who for some reason like to see men get it on'.

At the end of ten weeks, we were assigned essays. I decided to write about slash vs. LGBT and what I'd learned. I wrote about how slash is a great gateway for getting people to overcome homophobia, and that the fanfic environment is generally queer-friendly. However, I'd come to realize that LGBT people are wary of people appropriating their culture for personal gratification. Essentially, I had to acknowledge that despite my love for the slashfic, I had to take care not to get slash and LGBT rights mixed up. It's two very different things to enjoy the idea of two guys in love, and to be aware of the issues faced and identities adopted by people who do not conform to mainstream heteronormativity.


I've been thinking about that essay, and I still stand to that point of view. I mean, obviously a lot of you people here are more informed than me and already knew all this, but it took me a long time to figure out some things. Most importantly, that LGBT people (who aren't in slash fandom) often feel very distanced from slashers. They're not instant allies; they're not sure we really understand them.

I am really glad that we changed the wording of the petition. Again, there's nothing to stop us from petitioning the Powers That Be for K/S, but as we now know, we can not expect the support of the general LGBT community if we do. We've already experienced quite a bit of suspicion from people who affiliate themselves with LGBT.

Anyways, I guess I just want to say that I believe we've got to adapt to this POV, on the deepest level, or this movement won't survive. We have to get educated about the beliefs roots and mindset of the LGBT community or we'll have no hope of winning their support. Our good intentions and even our petition amendment aren't enough, basically-- we have to know the people we're advocating for in all dimensions.

I believe the Fandom Wank incident was the result of us not doing our homework. I really feel this is the perfect chance for us to turn around and make the most of it. In fact, I urge you guys to.

If you're in the LGBT community, as many of you no doubt are, please tell us what you know! We could use the experience and words of wisdom. If you're not, it's not too late to start learning. I'm no expert myself but I'd be happy to look up articles and essays to help us get informed. If you know of any good ones, please share!

Thanks for reading! Sorry if I got all tl;dr again. ^^ *offers cookies*

[Steamcry]

I've always seen slash as a stepping stone, myself. Most people read stories alot earlier than they'll care about some groups rights, and these stories allow the thought that something other than a heterosexual is acceptable. The unfortunate side-effect, though, is that many people never do take it further than having a (semi) secret love. They'll readily support a LGBT group, but never to the point of wanting a deeper level of involvement.

Mostly I think that the mentality is harmless, and the majority of people will grow up out of screaming fangirl/boy as they age and yet still keep the knowledge that these relationships are okay.

I think most of our backlash came from the internet being the internet. Calico made a nice thread on it, but when it comes down to the wire the internet community is a hard thing to explain unless you've truly been a part of it for years. Our backlash mostly occured due to two faults: our own and theirs. It was our fault that we took SEE Trek Love too narrowly, thus coming off as a silly fangirl/boy group and it was their fault for only taking us on a surface level without any research of their own. The LGBT community, like many rights groups, are very serious about what they do and having what seems to be a shipping petition can be a daunting yeahno, grow up first thanks.

I know I personally recoil if a immature group wants to come into any of my ideas. It just cheapens out the original movement and makes it that much more difficult. And that's why I think we got an end of that reaction. Not to mention it was amplified by the "internet effect." If it was more real life, we probably would have gotten a more dissaproving reaction, a flinch so to say, than all out anger. And I believe this mostly because we'd explain ourselves more in-person, rather than have someone just see "K/S, Pretition, Movie 2011."

tl;dr: Both sides at fault here. Us because we didn't think about the other view, them because it's the internet and they leap before looking.

[aolian]

I think most of our backlash came from the internet being the internet. Calico made a nice thread on it, but when it comes down to the wire the internet community is a hard thing to explain unless you've truly been a part of it for years. Our backlash mostly occured due to two faults: our own and theirs. It was our fault that we took SEE Trek Love too narrowly, thus coming off as a silly fangirl/boy group and it was their fault for only taking us on a surface level without any research of their own. The LGBT community, like many rights groups, are very serious about what they do and having what seems to be a shipping petition can be a daunting yeahno, grow up first thanks.


Ah. Yeah, I guess this could just be an overreaction to the internet being the way it is. People have commented on how 'they seem well meaning, but I'm turned off by the unintentional homophobia/sexism/racism on the board', though, and I can't think of any way of interpreting that other than us genuinely seeming under-informed. I don't know. I guess I understand their point, which is that it's important to be as savvy as possible about LGBT and women's rights, since we're running a movement to support the two.

If it was more real life, we probably would have gotten a more dissaproving reaction, a flinch so to say, than all out anger. And I believe this mostly because we'd explain ourselves more in-person, rather than have someone just see "K/S, Pretition, Movie 2011."


Yeah, that does make sense. Sorry, I'm definitely a n00b to fandom-- it's probably showing right now. Maybe the implication of 'if we don't make anonymous happy, we'll never succeed' is a touch panicky on my part? :p I imagine you're right that people in real life will be more likely to hear out the whole thing than to make a snap judgement.

[Catty-the-spy]

Racism? Really?

Slash has really opened my up to things. Without it, I might have seen this and gone "oh, that'ss nice", without getting as involved as I am.
I'm sheltered and naive, and I know that. I'm trying to find a way to reconcile that with what we're trying to do. And when I mean sheltered...I mean sheltered. I've somehow luked on the edges of fandom without getting into deeper waters, so I've never really gotten a chance to experience a lot of the abrasiveness and...rudeness (meaning, people not even trying to be polite, which rubs me all kinds of wrong ways).

I don't make sense a lot, and I'm probably not making sense right now. *headdesk*
I understand the difference between slash and LGBT rights, but slash had made me more open to thinking about them and doing something, so in my case, I can't completely seperate the two. I also haven't learned how not to take things to heart; I can take personal insults (in person, usually, but sometimes over the net) better than I can take insults to people or...other stuff that I care about. Not to mean that I repeatedly go off on murderous rampages, but it hurts me that people can be intentionally cruel in taht way, and I haven't learned how not to let it hurt, so this is a bit of a learning process. I make no secret of the fact that I am grossly underinformed, and I'm trying to learn. I've also come to realize - intelectually - that I can't please everybody, no matter how much I bend, and that I can only bend so far without hurting myself and making everyone angry anyway. I think what I'm trying to say is that I understand we need to bend to make people happy, but that we shouldn't try so hard that we snap and start hurting ourselves.
Unfourtunately, I have no idea how to help us do that, so I'm going to shut up now and start cheeleading from the sidelines, before I start sounding like an idiot.

We have homophobia, sexism, and racism here? Where? Did I do it? Cause that was totally not my intention and I can try to fix it. So many things come out wrong when I try to express myself that I can miscommunicate. (*needs practice*)

Did I make sense, or was that a whole lot of word vomit?

[aolian]

(haha, not word vomit at all! Don't be so hard on yourself. :) )

No, I don't think it's your intention (or anyone else's on here) to be homophobic or sexist or racist. I believe the forum comm here has really good intentions. It was the 'unintentional' that made me sit up and pay attention to that one particular comment.

I'm so sorry if that came across in a negative or accusatory way. :( I didn't mean to make anyone feel bad or to point fingers, just to make a general statement that I think it would be in our interests to be really informed about LGBT and women's rights. It's a learning experience for me too, and I'm also grossly underinformed when it comes to women's issues.

You make a good point about not trying too hard to make everyone happy-- I think Lanaea made that point, too, much earlier. I have to admit I tend to want to please everyone, which as you've said, is probably not a good thing in the long run.
I know what you mean about not knowing how to help us bend enough and not too much, too. Or even where to start as far as getting educated on these issues. Someone mentioned essays and meta written on the subjects on LJ, though-- maybe some links to those would be useful?

I don't know how much of the 'homophobia/sexism/racism' here is actual and unintentional, and how much is perceived, say for reasons like people thinking we were anti-Uhura by not realizing the implications of pushing her away from Spock (when we were K/S). I do think it's safest to assume a medium ground-- some of it's us, some of it's them. But yeah, like you, I'm worried it could be me mis-saying something, and I want to fix it. *also needs practice*

I guess I just thought that reading up would help clear up whatever it is that seems to still be getting to people, or at least help us understand where all that's coming from.

Sorry, this really is a downer post, isn't it? I swear I will stop being such a huge pessimist and talk less; draw more after this. Like. for reals. ^^;;;

[Catty-the-spy]

Nothing wrong with being pessimistic (so long as it isn't a round the clock things, cause that probably isn't healthy).
I would hate being thought of as rascist (partly because Uhura and I share a skin tone, and partly because I'm trying to fight against discrimination, and I wouldn't to do it myself).
I want to know where I'm wrong, too, which is part of what's bothering me. It's a problem of mine: "Don't just tell me I'm wrong; tell me why!!" I want you to point out what parts of what I say are wrong so I know where to focus my attentions, because otherwise I might end up changing the wrong things. I know from experience that I need that extra pair of eyes, and I've gotten used to school, where people will say "What you said right here is wrong" and point to it, instead of looking over the entire things and saying "You got some things wrong" and leaving me to scramble. It's an issue of mine that I'm trying to overcome, but as of right now, I need the guidance. (And I'm not talking about you specifically, but anyone in general.)
I also like people to point things out to me for the sake of my health, because I've been known to over-react when I don't know what I'm looking for. (*bad memories of a panic attack while looking over a test*) If I don't understand why I'm wrong, I freak, so I'm looking for that guidance for purely selfish reasons in part.
A wise teacher once told me that a good critique is a specific one, and that's sort of become one of my rules to live by. (With mixed results.)

Knowing where to start on this research would be great. I'm a terrible researcher when I'm on my own. *feels like a baby*
I didn't think you were pointing fingers or anything. I totally get that you're concerned, and I'm feeling it right back. I just wanted to know what to look for in my own words, cause I've been known to overlook personal errors by accident.

((I bring up word vomit because when I try to explain myself, I tend to keep going on and on; it gets worse if I'm not sure I've made my point - I'll keep expanding on the topic until it gets difficult to follow and I won't realize it until someone says something. A lot of times people have to interrupt me or else I'll keep talking until I run out of words or the person up and walks away.))

[originalpuck]

I made a post on my livejournal here (http://originalpuck.livejournal.com/117505.html) containing several links to resources that I feel would be beneficial to the members here. Hopefully they will help. ^^

[Xerxies]

I made a post on my livejournal here (http://originalpuck.livejournal.com/117505.html) containing several links to resources that I feel would be beneficial to the members here. Hopefully they will help. ^^

I love how you make fun of us and specifically quote me when doing so. Really classy. Not impressed. The links are nice, the commentary by you however, is not. Thank you for the resource, but no thank you as far as the opinion shoved in there.

[Elle]

Oh God...The comments on that post...Do people really think that badly of us?

[Xerxies]

Oh God...The comments on that post...Do people really think that badly of us?

I suppose they can think whatever they want. It's not my problem some people dislike us, or decide to make what I say in a single post a massive issue. If they wish to be petty, that's fine. ^_^ If they want to insult us, put us down, and just generally call us all idiots, that's their business. It's not unexpected, really. People do this all the time. It's just disappointing.

[Elle]

True...But that doesn't change the fact that its a little disheartening. I hope someone comes along and says "Hey, these guys aren't stupid! Maybe they could do something" instead of...that.

[Xerxies]

True...But that doesn't change the fact that its a little disheartening. I hope someone comes along and says "Hey, these guys aren't stupid! Maybe they could do something" instead of...that.
I'd offer my opinion on what those posts specifically about us were, but then I'd just be quoted and made fun of, or made into some sort of demon. :D So I guess I won't.
Don't let it get to you. I still believe in this movement. I'm not going to let a few people with opinions get in my way. Although I am reading a few of the links, and will continue to in the next few days. It's a decent resource.

[Elle]

-sniffles- We'll just work harder and prove them wrong. And you can PM me your thoughts, if it would make you feel better. XD

[Xerxies]

-sniffles- We'll just work harder and prove them wrong. And you can PM me your thoughts, if it would make you feel better. XD
Yes, that's the spirit. Though I think we should all at least read what people have to say, and decide if we want to change certain things, or keep them the same. It would be silly to completely ignore criticism when we could be using it to learn.
I think that's an excellent idea. :eek:

[Elle]

Not to say that constructive critcism doesn't tend to work better then flat out making fun of people. ^^

[Chaos]

Ignore the crap and welcome the chap! (lolwut?)

Anyways, constructive critism is worth looking at, but people who make fun, are not worth giving your time too. Usually.

[Xerxies]

Not to say that constructive critcism doesn't tend to work better then flat out making fun of people. ^^
That's very true. Making fun of people under the guise of helping them better themselves...it's very counterproductive. "Here, let me teach you while telling you that you're incapable of intelligent thought or ever being right."
It's just not the best learning tool. :/

[Xerxies]

Ignore the crap and welcome the chap! (lolwut?)

Anyways, constructive critism is worth looking at, but people who make fun, are not worth giving your time too. Usually.
Well said.

[Steamcry]

First off, I do love you all. Secondly, I'm not aiming to offend here.

He/She is not being rude by posting that. I can see why it would initially come across that way, but it's part of the internet thing. People here have been very nice and upbeat, but not everybody's going to hold the same perspective on issues. And we're most certainly not going to be coddled the entire way.

I will admit that the forums are a probably not the greatest representation of us here. The topics are usually light-hearted, casual and do generally degrade into a fan's chat room. Also, alot of people are young, and that's no fault of theirs at all. By-and-by we look more on the unprofessional side. Yes, we do get down to business, but it usually happens off the forums and so newcomers are only going to see the surface of the place before cringing away. I know personally I'm guilty of derailing a few threads myself.

These links are aimed to help us understand what's out there, in a more serious way. And while the commentary can cause people to stiffen up, remember to look at it from the other view point. SEEboot is about this revolution, and we are going to need to be able to buckle down a bit. The forums can be fun, but it's life. There's sections for that. He/She is trying to show us that. It's a helpful little post when you get down to it, because it is the sort of understanding that each and every one of us needs.

(I apologize if this post is a bit frayed, I just got dealt some heavy stuff in real life and I'm not really all that put together coherently.)

[Xerxies]

I'm not saying their post was useless, I even thanked them for the resources list. It's been good reading so far. I'm just saying their comments could have been phrased differently. Regardless. :/
I'm not going to get in a tizzy over it.
I hope you're okay, Steamcry. Good luck with whatever it is...<3 We're here for you if you need us.

[M'Lady Godiva]

I will admit that the forums are a probably not the greatest representation of us here. The topics are usually light-hearted, casual and do generally degrade into a fan's chat room. Also, alot of people are young, and that's no fault of theirs at all. By-and-by we look more on the unprofessional side. Yes, we do get down to business, but it usually happens off the forums and so newcomers are only going to see the surface of the place before cringing away.

You brought up an interesting point here. Though there's nothing wrong with the conversations held on this forum, if some of the lighter-hearted ones tend to cast us in a negative light, do you think there could be a way to...I don't know, work with this? I'm not saying we should censor threads or anything, but if this is a genuine and relatively frequent reason for the backlash we're receiving, then maybe we can discuss ways of dealing with the problem?

Suggestions?

[Xerxies]

You brought up an interesting point here. Though there's nothing wrong with the conversations held on this forum, if some of the lighter-hearted ones tend to cast us in a negative light, do you think there could be a way to...I don't know, work with this? I'm not saying we should censor threads or anything, but if this is a genuine and relatively frequent reason for the backlash we're receiving, then maybe we can discuss ways of dealing with the problem?

Suggestions?
Hm, I guess we could have business/light chat subforums in each forum? Or just a subforum for lighter topics, and the main forum (say, the TOS forum) to be for business/serious threads. That way they aren't mingled as much, leading people to have a better overall view of the forums and the movement as a whole?

[Steamcry]

I do help run a pretty large forum, and we have it broken down into categories, though it's much less meticulous than you've stated.

Basically, we have the forum set up so that it's broke down into the normal disucssion sections and we have people stay semi-constructive and serious though these parts. As long as you have an idea or an opinion, have at it. Go ahead and throw a joke in there every now and then (barring pictures and etc) along with it. As long as the topic stays on target, all's well.

We have one section dedicated to off-topic. The general section of this is for everything unrelated to the site's premise. There's also a section for rants and a section for spam. Feel free to let it aaaaalll out there. The rules of the site are more free here, but there's a few basic ones. If you have a problem with the site, take it to the serious sections. Play nice about other people's personal business. And what happens in off-topic, stays in off-topic. There's also an option to block this section from people who don't want to see it. Admins can "perma-lock" people out of it or the users themselves can click and option to have the section out of sight.

We do have to actively mod the other sections of the site. We'll move threads around to off-topic as we see fit, or cut out the sections that derailed the thread with and chunk that in there to let people have at it (with a reminder to stay on track). This system works pretty well all-around, though it'd obviously need to be modified to fit our needs if we want to change the forum.

[Catty-the-spy]

I guess I'll have to start channeling the little old lady in me. which means I need to spend more time on SheroesCentral so that I can have discussions and be relaxed at the same time.
I'm going to read the links...but tommorrow, or the day after. If I read it now, I won't be able to take it all in.

Part of my problem is that I tend to mix buisiness and chatter all the time, especially in discussions. That's the way my mind works right now, and I'm trying to train myself out of it, but it won't happen over night. I'll try to remember that this is a buisiness forum and that relaxed discussion should take place elsewhere. I'm hoping that will help.

[Xerxies]

I do help run a pretty large forum, and we have it broken down into categories, though it's much less meticulous than you've stated.

Basically, we have the forum set up so that it's broke down into the normal disucssion sections and we have people stay semi-constructive and serious though these parts. As long as you have an idea or an opinion, have at it. Go ahead and throw a joke in there every now and then (barring pictures and etc) along with it. As long as the topic stays on target, all's well.

We have one section dedicated to off-topic. The general section of this is for everything unrelated to the site's premise. There's also a section for rants and a section for spam. Feel free to let it aaaaalll out there. The rules of the site are more free here, but there's a few basic ones. If you have a problem with the site, take it to the serious sections. Play nice about other people's personal business. And what happens in off-topic, stays in off-topic. There's also an option to block this section from people who don't want to see it. Admins can "perma-lock" people out of it or the users themselves can click and option to have the section out of sight.

We do have to actively mod the other sections of the site. We'll move threads around to off-topic as we see fit, or cut out the sections that derailed the thread with and chunk that in there to let people have at it (with a reminder to stay on track). This system works pretty well all-around, though it'd obviously need to be modified to fit our needs if we want to change the forum.
Ah, I see...Of course I knew about the general section, but it's nice to know things can be blocked for people.
I'm not sure if things really need to be changed, because it would cause a great deal of trouble to do so, but it seems like people get the wrong idea from the current setup. :/ It would take further discussion before we do anything major. I was only offering a suggestion in case we decided to take an action to fix what might be a problem.
Good job running your forum though. ^_^

[monotonousmuse]

I think people are taking this post way too personally. Puck didn't point out anyone specifically-- the extent of her 'personal criticism' was pointing out a particular thread that had her frustrated.

It wasn't an attack on anyone, it was an honest reaction from one of those you are claiming to represent. The reaction to her post, however, HAS been a personal attack, which I finding very off-putting.

Really, after reading all the wank, I'm impressed that anyone took the time to compile a resources list at all. It's not an LGBT person's responsibility to educate those who are ignorant of the movements history, ideals, and etiquette. Most individuals will look at this wank just move on from the group entirely, seeing it as not worth their time.

The whole point of Puck's post was to point out some resources because she believes this group can develop into something great. She recognizes that this is a group in it's infancy, but has potential. Personally, I'm starting to doubt her optimism.

[originalpuck]

I love how you make fun of us and specifically quote me when doing so. Really classy. Not impressed. The links are nice, the commentary by you however, is not. Thank you for the resource, but no thank you as far as the opinion shoved in there.

Perhaps I'm missing where I specifically quoted you in my post. Would you mind quoting me? Because I can tell you that I honestly have no clue who you are, other than a random face on the forums, and was not intending to aim this post at any one person.

Also, after reading your response to my apparent inappropriate comments, I thought you might want to look at the articles on tone policing before re-engaging in this discussion (these can be found here (http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#notlistening), here (http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/05/feminism-101-on-anger.html), and here (http://zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com/429727.html)).

Just a suggestion, since I think you're getting dangerously close to problematic behavior.

[sunhawk]

Cheers to originalpuck for putting together a great resource list! I wanted to put something like that together but was embarressed to discover my bookmarks are not so great in that regard! I am gonna bookmark the crap out of your entry there!

Oh and cheers for the linkage :D

Just a suggestion, since I think you're getting dangerously close to problematic behavior.

I agree. Focusing on a few negative comments made out of frustration in a otherwise positive and helpful response is not productive. And frankly, a few people calling each other stupid is pretty mild when it comes to social activism. I don't support any kind of nasty behavior but it comes with the territory, because where passions run deep, tempers also burn really high. And anyone wanting to seriously join in this campaign in an active manner has to ask themselves - are you prepared for all kinds of reactions? Can you handle anger, indifference, scorn and rage? I've misjudged my own limits a few times and there's nothing wrong with admitting you have a thinner skin and can't handle much abuse. But you need a thick skin and a cool head to get ahead in this game. Otherwise you are going to crash and burn.

(I say "you" in a general sense, just so you know)

I actually like engaging in some intense debate, because I personally feel that I don't really know what I believe in until it's been burned and pounded by the fires of debate from vague potmetal opinion into a true sharp blade of conviction. Some opinions will be discarded, some won't survive the pounding, but the solid thoughts will come clear as people test you on them.

[aolian]

@originalpuck: I commented on your LJ, but thank you again for the awesome list of links! I'm looking forward to reading them and I'm sure I'll learn a lot from them. ^_^


He/She is not being rude by posting that. I can see why it would initially come across that way, but it's part of the internet thing. People here have been very nice and upbeat, but not everybody's going to hold the same perspective on issues. And we're most certainly not going to be coddled the entire way.


Yes. You have got to realize, this is a VERY GOOD thing. This person did not have to take the time (the post says 6 hours) to compile that list, specifically for us, especially given his/her very clearly stated opinion of us (not positive, heh). I know it might hurt, but we can't expect people to coddle us or shade their opinions to ours, especially in the freedom of their own private journals.

bonus of having been on fandom wank: after a while you get desensitized and the crit just doesn't bother you any more. I mean, originalpuck was really quite polite compared to some of the stuff I saw. :p

(ETA: 'quite polite' I mean seriously, not facetiously!)

[MusicalZebra]

Ok everyone I think we need to cool our jets a bit here. OK? Now I'm going to say what I see has happened here to cause tempers to flare.

Although I can't see where Xerxies is directly quoted I can see where the offense came from. Some of the sources you posted are to use Derailing for Dummies as an example about real bastards that make me wish to strangle them. Now by posting this Xerxies could see this as you comparing us to them. Which I hope was not your intention because I can also see how thats an important source on being sensitive to the people your talking to and how easily you can become a completly insentive -insertexplicthere- to them and how some people will just not want to talk about this issue because of how often that's happened. Though like I said this is just what I see has happened here and I could be completly wrong, mmmkay?

Also earlier on the unintentional 'homophobia/sexism/racism' which no one answered I've looked through some of the posts looking for it and whilst I haven't been able to see the homophobia (that's not to say it isn't there I just don't see how we have been) I can see where we may have seen as offensive for the other two. And it all has to do with Uhura. Not many people on these forums have been escpecially kind to her or her relationship with Spock. In fact some of us have been down right hostile to her. Now I can see why, nu!Uhura is filling up some really high expectations for being as BAMF as TOS!Uhura and frankly didn't get half the time she needed to do it. People. The first movie is the only one to be out yet and it was abou resarting a new universe and Kirk and Spock. Lay off her until the next movie at least ok? And her relationship with Spock and how against everyones been well guys wasn't one of our original arguments for K/S how epic it would be for such an iconic duo to be in that sort of relationship. Well I'm pretty sure Spock is half of that epic duo and his with Uhura. Consider how aboslutly kickass that is for activists against racism, forgetting all your arguments of how illogical or OC S/U is. Yeah get it now? And then we're all talking about how much we dislike the S/U couple. See where they could get their ideas about us?

I would also like to thank originalpuck for that list of sources. I am making my way through them now. Finally incase I have completly misread everything and have offened someone with my post, I aplogize.

[Xerxies]

Perhaps I'm missing where I specifically quoted you in my post. Would you mind quoting me? Because I can tell you that I honestly have no clue who you are, other than a random face on the forums, and was not intending to aim this post at any one person.

Also, after reading your response to my apparent inappropriate comments, I thought you might want to look at the articles on tone policing before re-engaging in this discussion (these can be found here (http://www.derailingfordummies.com/#notlistening), here (http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/05/feminism-101-on-anger.html), and here (http://zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com/429727.html)).

Just a suggestion, since I think you're getting dangerously close to problematic behavior.
Oh, I made the mistake of not looking closely, the person who quoted me was eumelia. Although I found most of her posts inflammatory and angry ranting, and not terribly helpful due to the overall "SEEtrek is made of idiots" tone. Doesn't make me want to listen to what she has to say when at every turn she insults us.
And I've already read all those articles. I read pretty much everything you had up there last night.
I slept on it, and I realize I was wrong to get as angry as I had. I apologize. I'm very sorry. Again, thank you for the resources.

[Elle]

-deepbreathe- I'd like to apologize for overreacting. Puck, thank you for the resources and for trying to help. Yesterday was not a good day for me in many respects, and I took it out and you. I admit, I was little hurt, but my overly sensitive reaction is not your problem, and needs to be gotten over, because, as many others have said, it won't be easy sailing the whole way. Sorry.
I agree we need to work on being more professional, and that splitting up the forums might be helpful. However, I do agree that I often mix talking and seriousness into one thing, like Catty said. I this is something most of us need to work on and it would look better on all of us. Of course, we already have the forums split up a lot, and us mods need to work a little harder. I do, at least. Sorry again.
I have to go for now, but I'll be back in a bit. If you want, when I get back, we can get on IRC to iron this out, so that people just coming in don't have it see these bits. It might scare them off...

[Elle]

Alright, I'm back. Anyone still here?

Actually. We should wait for Lance... (sorry for the double post, I wanted this on the new posts section)

[originalpuck]

Although I found most of her posts inflammatory and angry ranting, and not terribly helpful due to the overall "SEEtrek is made of idiots" tone. Doesn't make me want to listen to what she has to say when at every turn she insults us.

This was the problematic behavior I was speaking about. I don't know much about your personal life, so I don't know if you're straight or a male or anything of that nature. It's irrelevant, tbh, since it's not your identity that's at question here, but your actions.

This is something that most allies need to realize right off the bat - actions can be good or bad. Actions can be racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. That doesn't mean the person is racist, etc, but that their actions are. And yeah, considering the society we live in, almost everyone has those moments from time to time, be they internalized sexism/racism/what-have-you or not.

What is relevant is that you are tone policing. Which, as those articles I pointed you towards explain, is a bad thing. Since those don't seem to have gotten through, I'm going to try to explain in my own way.

Instead of feeling insulted at the tone (which, honestly, I find quite tame and completely understandable), you should be looking at it as if it's something to understand. Take yourself out of the equation for a moment, and look at the poster. Why is she using that tone? What upset her to that point?

Trying to understand the person and the hurts that they feel is essential to good ally work. And when someone is so clearly hurt and upset about something, the appropriate response is not to tell them, 'don't show your hurt, shame on you.'

When an oppressed person speaks out as to what's angering them, what's upsetting them, it's inappropriate for the community who is doing the oppressing to tell them, essentially, that 'they're not doing it right.' They should look at the hurt they're causing, look at the tone, and attempt to navigate from there.

Tone policing is a form of silencing voices, and should not be engaged in when an oppressed person is attempting to share with an organization the ways in which they are furthering oppression. End of story.


* This isn't just directed at you, though that was the post that prompted this. I've seen it done a lot here and when dealing with opposition in gener

[Xerxies]

Yes, I realize she's annoyed that we were pushing a particular pairing, and indeed with most of our actions/members. She doesn't like both what we're doing and how we're doing it for multiple reasons. I can understand why.
Most of the issues presented, other than our overall attitudes, were dealing with the old petition, which has already been changed.
I will attempt to improve my overall attitude, and I think we need some ground rules as far as that goes, but other than that I'm afraid I can't do much to assuage her woes, since they seem to have a lot to do with things that have already been changed. This is similar with other links on the "Trek!fail" supplied.
There just aren't many ways to fix the problem, other than for each member to be more careful with what they say and how they act.

[aolian]

There just aren't many ways to fix the problem, other than for each member to be more careful with what they say and how they act.


Yeah, keep in mind that the post was probably made before we amended the petition. :) I understand wanting to defend ourselves as not being the K/S shippers she makes us out to be, but that's actually not the issue, I think-- the issue is that we should have known that K/S would read as shippiness before heading in there.

Like, it's more that we should have anticipated these kinds of angry responses. We missed the boat last time, and sort of belatedly 'fixed' the K/S problem. But I think the real, underlying 'problem' that needs fixing is that we need to know how important it is to fundamentally understand the general needs and concerns of the groups we are allies of (LGBT, women, PoC). For me, Eumelia's post is more about how we encouraged people to misunderstand us by not doing our research beforehand. ^^;

Anyways, I'm really glad every time you and people here have been willing to seriously consider what we can learn from criticism. Thank all of you guys so much. <3

ETA: At the risk of sounding pedantic, I agree with originalpuck on the 'tone' issue! I am just addressing people in general. I think we should value an 'angry tone' as an indicator of the fact that someone feels strongly about this, and there is most likely an important or valid reason why they feel that way. They're not trying to provoke or hurt us, they're trying to express themselves. I can see how asking them not to sound angry when they are angry may be seen as asking them to censor themselves. ^_^;

ETAA: er, sorry, originalpuck, if I'm getting any of this wrong, feel free to tell me to get off your side at any time.

[Xerxies]

Yeah, keep in mind that the post was probably made before we amended the petition. :) I understand wanting to defend ourselves as not being the K/S shippers she makes us out to be, but that's actually not the issue, I think-- the issue is that we should have known that K/S would read as shippiness before heading in there.

Like, it's more that we should have anticipated these kinds of angry responses. We missed the boat last time, and sort of belatedly 'fixed' the K/S problem. But I think the real, underlying 'problem' that needs fixing is that we need to know how important it is to fundamentally understand the general needs and concerns of the groups we are allies of (LGBT, women, PoC). For me, Eumelia's post is more about how we encouraged people to misunderstand us by not doing our research beforehand. ^^;

Anyways, I'm really glad every time you and people here have been willing to seriously consider what we can learn from criticism. Thank all of you guys so much. <3

ETA: At the risk of sounding pedantic, I agree with originalpuck on the 'tone' issue! I am just addressing people in general. I think we should value an 'angry tone' as an indicator of the fact that someone feels strongly about this, and there is most likely an important or valid reason why they feel that way. They're not trying to provoke or hurt us, they're trying to express themselves. I can see how asking them not to sound angry when they are angry may be seen as asking them to censor themselves. ^_^;
Yes. I suppose we really should have seen that coming. I'm sorry we didn't...
I believe if we all read the resources presented and try to keep them in mind, we can set out with a better understanding of what we should be doing, and should not be doing. Maybe in this way we can try and make a better impression next time.

[sunhawk]

Yeah, keep in mind that the post was probably made before we amended the petition. :) I understand wanting to defend ourselves as not being the K/S shippers she makes us out to be, but that's actually not the issue, I think-- the issue is that we should have known that K/S would read as shippiness before heading in there.

Like, it's more that we should have anticipated these kinds of angry responses. We missed the boat last time, and sort of belatedly 'fixed' the K/S problem. But I think the real, underlying 'problem' that needs fixing is that we need to know how important it is to fundamentally understand the general needs and concerns of the groups we are allies of (LGBT, women, PoC). For me, Eumelia's post is more about how we encouraged people to misunderstand us by not doing our research beforehand. ^^;

Anyways, I'm really glad every time you and people here have been willing to seriously consider what we can learn from criticism. Thank all of you guys so much. <3

ETA: At the risk of sounding pedantic, I agree with originalpuck on the 'tone' issue! I am just addressing people in general. I think we should value an 'angry tone' as an indicator of the fact that someone feels strongly about this, and there is most likely an important or valid reason why they feel that way. They're not trying to provoke or hurt us, they're trying to express themselves. I can see how asking them not to sound angry when they are angry may be seen as asking them to censor themselves. ^_^;

ETAA: er, sorry, originalpuck, if I'm getting any of this wrong, feel free to tell me to get off your side at any time.

I also agree with puck's comments regarding tone: it's very counterproductive to get into a mindset of "Well, if they'd said their points nicely, I'd listen! But they were mean so I'm dismissing everything they are saving!" when it comes to people responding to the actions/words of a group in terms of racism/sexism/homophobia/etc. Not everyone is going to bother sugarcoating their words before they correct you, and what they are saying will still be incredibly valid and useful regardless.

And I agree with you aolian regarding the importance of understanding the overarching issues. It's not enough to say "Well we changed K/S because people didn't like it, so get off our backs!" because what really should be said is "We removed the K/S because we realized there were issues at hand that made K/S counterproductive, and we're aware of reasons that choosing K/S can come across as racist or fetishing, etc" if you catch my drift :)